So keep the conscripts sweating away in Palestine surrounded by Arabs expecting them to hand over the country. And unlike OTL there is no "victory" to celebrate only debt and defeat.
What are you going to do tell them to swim to Britain? The Arabs don't seem to me to be able to force the British to retreat and the other option is Ottoman return so there is room for compromise.
In that context what is another worthless colony with a rebellious population of Arabs who have been screwed over by the peace deal going to do for morale?
Because you have won against the Ottomans, it's not great but it still is something.
Better to trade it for concessions elsewhere (keeping Cyprus / Malta / Gibraltar from CP control and keeping Egypt in UK orbit)
Germany won't demand concessions from it in the ME, I already find it unlikely that they force the British to retreat from all that they've gained in the war; Germany doesn't want to antagonize Britain over territories it already held.
As for decolonization, I highly doubt it would be delayed more than a decade.
While colonization was nearing its end WW2 made it inevitable as the colonial empires were exhausted and the population in the colonies more independent minded than ever before; without WW2 the colonial empires wouldn't have their eyes opened about the need to stop colonization; even IOTL it took them decades to give up fully on their colonial empire so I would imagine a much longer time frame than a decade.
without the hyper focus the war put on the production of propeller planes and the massive surplus it generated, jet engines might advance a little faster, or at least become widely available earlier
Wasn't the first jet plane created by the Germans during WW2? And without the Cold War there would be less incentive to invest as much in military technology
This is also my thoughts. Without a generation of reformers killed off by World War II and the devastation of said war, the USSR would be in much better shape. That's even assuming Stalin comes to power in a CP victory.
Even if Stalin manages to come to power the different politics would mean that different persons would come to power.
The Red Scare happened OTL in 1919, when the Russian civil war was still going on. It could get worse ITTL and have political repercussions (with a milder Brest-litovsk treaty).
The USSR wasn't considered that much of a threat IOTL, people would be much more worried about Germany and might even be willing to ally themselves with the Soviets if Germany is their enemy n.1
For more than a year, American propaganda constantly repeated that the German Empire was an imperialist, militarist and autocratic power. If the United States had lost, the population would have retained this representation, and this could also have influenced the leaders' representation of Germany (you know the "believing in your own propaganda" thing that OTL happened to the Americans during the cold war).
It may have still believed in that but it doesn't mean that they'll go to war with it, it would be clear after WW1 that involving yourself in European politics only brings misery over the US.
The feeling of war weariness appeared OTL because the Americans had won and there was no longer a threat. ITTL, they lost and humiliation takes over war weariness. Of course, I'm talking about leaders, it changes very little for the population. It's a bit the same thing with Germany (OTL, they want to get their glory back, ITTL, they just want to guarantee their winnings) except the Americans are way more moderate and their defeat wasn't a complete catastrophy. Yet, it is IMO still enough to discredit isolationnism (and don't forget that ITTL France and the UK would surely not be able to pay back their loans to the US).
Feelings of war weariness developed IOTL because of the war, a defeat (which also means loans not paid back -> some economic problems) would only make them stronger. I think the US would turn back to their pre-war isolationism instead of doubling down on it, they aren't in the same position as other countries.
You seem to assume that everyone would be very dovish after WWI. This is reasonable given the bad experiences with the last war. There is another side to the story though.

Let's view this from a game-theoretic view point. Let's consider international crises / moves as a game where each of the two players has two options: be a hawk, or be a dove. This simplifies a lot to show a mechanism that would apply ITTL.

If Player A is a dove and Player B is also a dove, nothing happens. +-0 points for both players.

If both players are hawks, war happens. -200 points for both players.

If Player A is a hawk, while Player B is a dove, Player A can use the (implicit) threat of war to force generous political concessions. This would mean +70 points for Player A and -20 points for Player B. If Player A backs off while Player B is hawkish, Player B gets +70, while Player A gets -20 points.

The optimal outcome for each player is to be a hawk among doves. War is something everyone has eminently good reasons to avoid.

If some players are manifestly extremely risk-averse this would incentivize others to be more brazen in their foreign policy towards, assuming their opponents will back off. Everyone being extremely dovish is not a stable equilibrium.
They are risk averse because of different reasons, the UK wants to focus on internal problems (with all of the problems that brings to stability of the colonies) while Germany would prefer not to get it involved into the war however the Germans won't back off if the Brits prove to be annoying while Britain would see no point in joining Russia since it would just be hopeless (you lost while Germany was significantly weaker, what makes you think you'll win round two?).
I don't think this is how it works, NATO and the Warsaw Pact (did) exist despite no actual war. The potentiality of war is enough.
Allying yourself now would be a provocation to Germany, Russian leaders wouldn't do that unless they are expecting to go to war soon.
 
Military technologies advances much faster during total war since all resources are dedicated to it.
That's not necessarily true though. You pour all of your resources into getting whatever works as quickly as possible without taking the time to develop the technology. Instead of developing new tech, you focus on incremental improvements to existing tech, eventually leading to bottlenecks.
 
That's not necessarily true though. You pour all of your resources into getting whatever works as quickly as possible without taking the time to develop the technology. Instead of developing new tech, you focus on incremental improvements to existing tech, eventually leading to bottlenecks.
They spend much more resources on developing new tech, they sometimes aren't used as extensively but warfare speeds up development of weapons; look at all the innovations during WW2.
 
They spend much more resources on developing new tech, they sometimes aren't used as extensively but warfare speeds up development of weapons; look at all the innovations during WW2.
Military tech is just a small part of overall technology anyway, so I really don't see how military budgets (which probably wouldn't even be lower than OTL anyway) would stifle technology.
 
Look at how much technology advanced during the Cold War, no actual fighting needed.
It advanced that much because of conflict, without the need to constantly defeat your opponent they would've invested much less into technologies.
Look at how much it advanced between the Napoleonic Wars and World War I.
We're talking about the era in which industrialization started and 100 years trough that, it wouldn't be logical if things went otherwise.
 
It advanced that much because of conflict, without the need to constantly defeat your opponent they would've invested much less into technologies
That same need always existed and always will. It's not like there's no geopolitical competition just because there's no World War II.

We're talking about the era in which industrialization started and 100 years trough that, it wouldn't be logical if things went otherwise.
It's almost like the lack of conflict allowed for that.
 
That same need always existed and always will. It's not like there's no geopolitical competition just because there's no World War II.
There would be no Cold War so while they still exist there will be less investments.
It's almost like the lack of conflict allowed for that.
I doubt, industrialization still would've come and certain countries would've understood the need to industrialize faster had they been constantly involved in GP conflicts.
 
There would be no Cold War so while they still exist there will be less investments.

I doubt, industrialization still would've come and certain countries would've understood the need to industrialize faster had they been constantly involved in GP conflicts.
The Cold War was literally just a period of geopolitical tensions, the kind of which existed prior to WWI.
 
It's almost like the lack of conflict allowed for that.
I doubt, industrialization still would've come and certain countries would've understood the need to industrialize faster had they been constantly involved in GP conflicts.
I think you are both right. Times of peace allow for major structural changes (industrial revolution) while times of war boost already known technologies (rockets, nuclear power, airplanes, etc.).
The Cold War was literally just a period of geopolitical tensions, the kind of which existed prior to WWI.
Except during the Cold War any direct war would mean nuclear apocalypse and it involed only 2 big GPs who each ruled a half of the world, and not 6+ GPs like in the 19th Century in Europe.
 
I think you are both right. Times of peace allow for major structural changes (industrial revolution) while times of war boost already known technologies (rockets, nuclear power, airplanes, etc.).
Fair enough.
Except during the Cold War any direct war would mean nuclear apocalypse and it involed only 2 big GPs who each ruled a half of the world, and not 6+ GPs like in the 19th Century in Europe.
Wouldn't 6+ great powers mean more innovation?

Also, something tangentially related to technology: I feel like a lot of the women's liberation of the 20th century and the Civil Rights movements were caused by improving technology. With the advent of the washing machine and dishwasher, women could just pop in whatever needed to be cleaned and go do something else. This freeing up of time allowed for much greater liberty, since they didn't have to spend all day doing arduous chores. And the Civil Rights movements were greatly helped along by the television, as it put on full display for all to see the inequalities faced by racial minorities and made it impossible to ignore. In a world where consumer technologies such as these advance at least as fast as OTL, if not faster, social progress probably happens at a similar rate.

On top of that, the World Wars also set back social progress. Most of the stuff we associate with the Roaring Twenties, such as Germany's LGBTQ research or women's liberation, had been on the rise before WWI. Women had the vote in New Zealand and several US states, and given the fact that there wasn't much objection to giving women the vote in Weimar Germany, it was probably going to happen anyway, with or without the war. The wars caused a great reactionary backlash; look at the first few years of Weimar Germany until 1924 or so, or the US's anti-immigration laws, or the fact that the Ku Klux Klan reached its height in the 20s, or the crackdowns on the American left after the war, or the end of the Progressive Era and the weakening of the labor movement, or the forced assimilation of immigrants, or the rise of fascism in Italy. Look at the conservatism in the US in the 1950s, or the racism of the 1960s even in the face of the Civil Rights movement, or the conservatism of the 1970s and 1980s after the Vietnam War. West Germany was actually pretty conservative until at least the 1960s as well, if not later. People after the wars wanted a "return to normalcy", and while the war might temporarily force women and blacks into the army, it also gives the excuse that now that the war is over, we can kick them back out.

TL;DR: A world without WWI or WWII would probably have greater social progress than ours. Perhaps it's a bit less "in your face", but it would certainly still happen.
 
Wouldn't 6+ great powers mean more innovation?
The number of GPs isn't the most important. As I said earlier, IMO, peace=structural changes (industrial revolution, internet revolution nowadays) whereas wartime=short but incredibly powerful boosts in already known technologies (related to war technologies of course, but which then impact the civilians).
Also, something tangentially related to technology: I feel like a lot of the women's liberation of the 20th century and the Civil Rights movements were caused by improving technology. With the advent of the washing machine and dishwasher, women could just pop in whatever needed to be cleaned and go do something else. This freeing up of time allowed for much greater liberty, since they didn't have to spend all day doing arduous chores. And the Civil Rights movements were greatly helped along by the television, as it put on full display for all to see the inequalities faced by racial minorities and made it impossible to ignore. In a world where consumer technologies such as these advance at least as fast as OTL, if not faster, social progress probably happens at a similar rate.
Yes, I agree, but technological progress is far from the only factor. Look at the incredibly wealthy countries of our time (Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Qatar) that grant virtually no rights to women, and this doesn't seem to create huge stability problems (and contrary to many beliefs, these countries are far from being barbarians, but that's another matter). For racism, it's the same. Look at China, Israel or even Japan and South Korea, each with a different view of foreigners, close to racism by our Western standards, and yet they are quite rich countries. To put it simply, culture is as important as progress and wealth.
Look at the conservatism in the US in the 1950s, or the racism of the 1960s even in the face of the Civil Rights movement, or the conservatism of the 1970s and 1980s after the Vietnam War. West Germany was actually pretty conservative until at least the 1960s as well, if not later. People after the wars wanted a "return to normalcy", and while the war might temporarily force women and blacks into the army, it also gives the excuse that now that the war is over, we can kick them back out.
For me, the years 1960 to 1980 were, on the contrary, extremely “progressive”. Young people listened to the Rolling Stones who had very sexual messages in their songs and the Beatles openly took drugs and even gave a good image of the communist system in one of their hits (“Back in the USSR”). As a Western European, I know many intellectuals (mostly French, like Michel Foucault, Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir or German like Daniel Cohn-Bendit...) who were very popular among the students and defended causes like gay rights, Maoism, feminism and even pedophilia (in the 1970s, some French newspapers invited intellectuals who campaigned for the legalization of pedophilia, without much negative reaction). But I don't know, maybe it was just a Western European thing.
TL;DR: A world without WWI or WWII would probably have greater social progress than ours. Perhaps it's a bit less "in your face", but it would certainly still happen.
I don't see modern feminism, the LGBT movement, or even modern anti-racism happening in a world without WWI. These would be very very moderate versions of these movements and around 2000, IMO, you would only have basic rights for minorities (the right to vote and work for women, the legalization of homosexuality, but very far from gay marriage, and the ban on discriminating against someone because of their race, but not much).

And then, maybe we shouldn't talk about it too much, the moderators don't like discussions about politics at all.
 
Yes, I agree, but technological progress is far from the only factor. Look at the incredibly wealthy countries of our time (Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Qatar) that grant virtually no rights to women, and this doesn't seem to create huge stability problems (and contrary to many beliefs, these countries are far from being barbarians, but that's another matter). For racism, it's the same. Look at China, Israel or even Japan and South Korea, each with a different view of foreigners, close to racism by our Western standards, and yet they are quite rich countries. To put it simply, culture is as important as progress and wealth.
That is true. I don't see Germany, France, or Austria-Hungary being as bad as Saudi Arabia or China on these fronts though. Maybe it would be similar to Japan or South Korea, with a disdain for foreigners and a feeling of superiority, but it doesn't lead to overt, legal discrimination. Western cultures were quite different from Japan or South Korea (although to be fair, they have "westernized" quite a bit).
For me, the years 1960 to 1980 were, on the contrary, extremely “progressive”. Young people listened to the Rolling Stones who had very sexual messages in their songs and the Beatles openly took drugs and even gave a good image of the communist system in one of their hits (“Back in the USSR”). As a Western European, I know many intellectuals (mostly French, like Michel Foucault, Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir or German like Daniel Cohn-Bendit...) who were very popular among the students and defended causes like gay rights, Maoism, feminism and even pedophilia (in the 1970s, some French newspapers invited intellectuals who campaigned for the legalization of pedophilia, without much negative reaction). But I don't know, maybe it was just a Western European thing.
Here's the thing: that's in Europe. In the United States, the 1960s were very liberal, but the Vietnam War shook everyone, leading to the conservative Nixon and Raegan eras. It wasn't as bad as the 1950s, but there was definitely a conservative streak here in the '70s and '80s. Western Europe didn't experience a war during that time, so they were more liberal.
I don't see modern feminism, the LGBT movement, or even modern anti-racism happening in a world without WWI. These would be very very moderate versions of these movements and around 2000, IMO, you would only have basic rights for minorities (the right to vote and work for women, the legalization of homosexuality, but very far from gay marriage, and the ban on discriminating against someone because of their race, but not much).

And then, maybe we shouldn't talk about it too much, the moderators don't like discussions about politics at all.
I think it would. Maybe you don't see huge leaps forward, but progress would probably be steadier. I think both of our opinions hold weight though; we don't know, since neither of us live in a no world wars TL.

I think the mods are fine with discussions like this, they just don't like current politics.
 
That is true. I don't see Germany, France, or Austria-Hungary being as bad as Saudi Arabia or China on these fronts though. Maybe it would be similar to Japan or South Korea, with a disdain for foreigners and a feeling of superiority, but it doesn't lead to overt, legal discrimination. Western cultures were quite different from Japan or South Korea (although to be fair, they have "westernized" quite a bit).
I agree. However, I'm not sure that Japan and South Korea are really "westernized" in reality, it could also just be an impression because Westerners like to believe that everyone follows their ideas and way of living (this is not a criticism, I come from the West myself).
Here's the thing: that's in Europe. In the United States, the 1960s were very liberal, but the Vietnam War shook everyone, leading to the conservative Nixon and Raegan eras. It wasn't as bad as the 1950s, but there was definitely a conservative streak here in the '70s and '80s. Western Europe didn't experience a war during that time, so they were more liberal.
Interesting. I didn't know that there were such differences between Western Europe and the US at the time, because for everyone in Europe, the 1970s are universally considered a very liberal and progressive decade (even too much on certain subjects...). Also, I'm not sure the Europeans were more liberal because of the lack of war. France was surely one of the main liberal countries (with the New Left and the intellectuals I spoke about) and yet the country fought a long and bloody colonial war in Algeria with numerous repercussions in mainland France (terrorist attacks, political instability, assassinations...).
I think it would. Maybe you don't see huge leaps forward, but progress would probably be steadier. I think both of our opinions hold weight though; we don't know, since neither of us live in a no world wars TL.
This is the main problem with alternative history: we don't know how it would happen in reality. Maybe the US would be more liberal, but not Europe, which still has monarchies and a very long history of traditions and therefore more conservative elements in their societies.
I think the mods are fine with discussions like this, they just don't like current politics.
I hope so.
 
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