Being honest once you learned it from religious purpose,common use is just having enough common speakers.
Regardless you forgot how much plurilingual people were
WI: Umar ibn Hafsun defeats the Umayyads - Mozarab/Muladí Al-Andalus
- Thread starter Bomster
- Start date
Regardless you forgot how much plurilingual people were
Butterflies as you said. The use o latin mozarabic maybe use or maybe they adapt arabic to the printing press. Hard to say for sure without some pilars of how the new dynasty will act in similar subjects.
Mozarabic is a wrong epitef, it was Romance, the romance the troops and inhabitants of the peninsula talked, it come from the North African and Iberian Romance mashed together with arabian loanwords and concept
About scripts..it was open, in fact formalization of script come very late as the proper writing language was arabic and Romance was for talking usage, but the writers use latin alphabet as any romance language alongside adopting Aljamido
Extremely interesting discussion so far! One of the most comprehensive Al-Andalus scenario discussions I've seen.
Although this may be jumping a bit too far ahead, I would like to say that having a long-standing rift between Al-Andalus and North Africa (such as that which would result from the two regions adopting divergent forms of Islam) is actually quite desirable if you're interested in a TL where the Andalusis kick-start the age of discovery in a similar way to OTL.
It may even happen much sooner. The enmity with North Africa would push the Andalus to colonise Macaronesia and send ships sailing to the south, hoping to bypass trans-saharan trade networks (from which they would be presumably cut off at least some of the time) and go directly to the source of the gold in the gulf of Guinea. This is a very similar incentive as OTL Portugal, and could easily lead to the developments in maritime technologies and eventual discovery of oceanic gyres.
Although this may be jumping a bit too far ahead, I would like to say that having a long-standing rift between Al-Andalus and North Africa (such as that which would result from the two regions adopting divergent forms of Islam) is actually quite desirable if you're interested in a TL where the Andalusis kick-start the age of discovery in a similar way to OTL.
It may even happen much sooner. The enmity with North Africa would push the Andalus to colonise Macaronesia and send ships sailing to the south, hoping to bypass trans-saharan trade networks (from which they would be presumably cut off at least some of the time) and go directly to the source of the gold in the gulf of Guinea. This is a very similar incentive as OTL Portugal, and could easily lead to the developments in maritime technologies and eventual discovery of oceanic gyres.
IMHO some sort of a crusade is almost a given, those butterflies aren't gonna make the Christians any more accepting of the Andalus' existence than IOTL Plus it makes for an easier and juicier target than the deserts of Outremer
Id say not if only because ibn Hafsun making al andalus stronger and thus there not being a strong launching ground for the Iberian wing of the Crusades. Conversely Aquitaine focusing on Al Andalus means Aquitaine cant contribute as much to Levantine campaigns
also how does ibn Hafsun integrate muladi. Does he simultaneously weaken Bani Amrus and Bani Qasi?
Well, that's a great question, we can't say anything simply because he wasn't able to do it in OTL. But I would say that groups like the Banu Amrus and Banu Qasi will emerge as one of the strongest noble families in Al Andalus. The Banu Qasi for example fought on Umar's side so this idea of weakening them is unlikely. Considering that we are going to have a purge of the Arab and Berber elite by Umar, these spaces will be replaced mostly by the Muladi (and to a lesser extent Mozarabic) elite. But at the same time, we have his proposals regarding various reforms. So he will have to balance the Muladi elite and these reforms. But some, such as greater local autonomy, will be supported without major difficulties. About the containment of power, probably did the same thing that kings did. Playing one noble family against another, using popular support (especially Mozarabic), merchants, and clergy.
Well, the Christian advance only really occurred with the complete collapse of the central government. Without this, any real progress is much more difficult because you have to fight against a functional kingdom and not a collapsed region in constant civil war.
Yes, this greater focus of Aquitaine's nobles on protecting their south will be to the detriment of the Crusades. At the same time, Aquitaine culture may be more militarized than in Otl, having more Crusader sentiment, perhaps something more similar to that seen by the Iberian Catholic kingdoms. That could be very useful to the king, especially if this elite becomes more dependent on him.
Yes, this is true, Andalus under the command of Umar will advance over the Catholic kingdoms in the same way that Andalus under the command of the Umayyads were. Perhaps the biggest difference is a lesser focus on the Maghreb than the Umayyads.
Yes, that is correct, and I would say that certain areas like Catalonia or Pamplona (Navarre) will be maintained due to France (remaining part of France). Other than that, Asturia (or the kingdoms derived from this kingdom) will suffer from this strengthening of Andalus (they suffered a lot during the reign of Al-Mansur).
weakened the Bani is a good way for the Hafsun to get overthrow, especially as Qasi were locals...
my idea was finding a new muladi elite to replace the old elite but there's not really a mechanism or base for that in Al Andalus( or really anywhere but China at that time). And how the states got their shapes means the new elite if not derived from Hafsunid madrassas wont be more power politics players than the old elite may be fallacious
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Even China were the followers of the new overlord so a 'new'' base truly wasn't, regardless Qasi is the most important one as this precede the Banu Angelino(ITTL they might remain in Maghreb) and antagonize just follow to them and other put a new leader of their liking
Plus too Muladi and we play the full circle, expand your base, you've land north to conquest
Umar's proposal for decentralization may be similar to feudalism. Of course, since he didn't win, we don't have to know what this decentralization would be like. But in theory you have regions that are semi-independent to structure their fiefdoms as they wish. As a whole Islamic kingdoms were more centralized so even with Umar's reforms the central government would still have more power than a feudal king. Perhaps something between Norman England, which was very centralized for the period, and France, which was exactly the opposite, maybe with a form of council for the muladi elites to be able to speak to the emir
First in this era, this distinction between "mosque" and "madrasa" was not very present. In 859 we have the al-Qarawiyyin in the city of Fes, present-day Morocco (which is considered by some to be the most ancient university, but this is disputed due to the religious curriculum. So depending on the classification it is either it or the university of Bologna). In any case, madrasahs only became an Islamic pillar in the 11th century, and this period is considered by many as the starting point for the proliferation of formal madrasas. soS in this era Hafsunid madrassas will not be a problem.
Second, you are wrong the old elite was part of the power closely linked to the Umayyads and they were extremely important political players, if they were not Al-Mansur would not have had to fight with the Arab elite for power during his rise (or exterminate them to ensure his power in the long term). If it weren't for them, the Umayyads wouldn't have a power base. The issue is more of a dispute over space, so we will probably have something similar to the Umayyad court, but instead of Berbers and Arabs we will have Muladis and Mozarabics; with Umar's power base (the Muladis and Mozarabics) occupying government positions (obviously certain positions are exclusive to Muslims).
This is another thing, perhaps we will have a migration of these Muladi families to Al Andalus? In addition to, of course, the rise and fall of several Muladi families.
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true I was wondering if Noveau riche vs established muladis would be more independent of Hafsunid support and pursuing their own agenda within the Hafsunid court
Yeah, especially as a lot of the qusi/goth descendent also were on the frontilines with the mountain kingdoms/french backed ones
It's difficult to say, especially since we don't know how the Umar revolt elite will act in the long term. But traditionally over time a clash between the new elite vs the old elite always occurs.
The Banu qasi in particular could really be a force to be reckoned with if they were able to have a larger fiefdom than in the otl in addition to true support from the central government. But coastal elites can rise in both trade and raids.
I will extrapolate a situation using the Banu qasi in a good situation. They made the correct decisions in the revolt and managed to secure an important part of Iberia directly. In OTL they had control over this territory at their height. The image below (the second one) would be of them after the victory of the revolt (This image is from the wiki and is wrong because it puts all the rebel taifas within the control of the Banu Qasi, but let's pretend in this case the image would be about their territory after the revolt). This would give them a solid base to draw resources for their protection and prevent the expansion of the Hispanic March (a conglomerate of French vassals in Catalonia and parts of the Pyrenees) and Navarre. It can even allow seasonal raids to keep the region relatively weak (true expansion is difficult due to France). This has benefits and harms for Umar, the benefits are clear safe borders and the Banu Qasi will have a large focus in northern Iberia. The negative is how strong they will be.
Another group that has not been discussed and is important is the Saqaliba. They began to gain popularity in the 8th century but became a mainstay of Al Andalus in the 10th century. I think that even without a super centralized government like the OTL, this group will gain popularity. So it's interesting how the Banu Hafsun use them (as well as other families).
Artistic representation of a Muslim knight of the Banu Qasi, 9th-10th centuries. (I found the image very unique with the knight looking more like what we imagine a knight from the French Early Middle Ages than what people imagine a Muslim knight from Iberia. Which makes sense considering where they live and who they are)
