AHC: Carolingian Empire Endures (2023 ed)

With no PoDs prior to the death of Charlemagne, how can his empire still be around a century later? What are the latest PoDs we'd need for (1) West and East Francia to be united around this time (circa 913), and (2) are still ruled by a Carolingian? Bonus points if the growth in learning, the economy, and social infrastructure seen in the Carolingian (and OTL Ottonian) Renaissance(s) are wanked as well. And once we have a scenario -- how is history changed as a result?
 
The most obvious way, ISTM, would be to somehow get the Franks to abandon their custom of partitive inheritance. Without that, there's nothing really to stop the core of the empire remaining united more or less indefinitely (obviously its borders would fluctuate somewhat), which would in turn have benefits for the economy, society, and learning. As for how history is changed, such a state would obviously be dominant in Europe. Perhaps you might even get a China-like situation, where the Holy Roman Emperor (or whatever precise title he ends up using) is able to make the other Christian states of Europe into his vassals, and become the temporal head of Christendom in fact as well as in name.
 
With no PoDs prior to the death of Charlemagne, how can his empire still be around a century later? What are the latest PoDs we'd need for (1) West and East Francia to be united around this time (circa 913), and (2) are still ruled by a Carolingian? Bonus points if the growth in learning, the economy, and social infrastructure seen in the Carolingian (and OTL Ottonian) Renaissance(s) are wanked as well. And once we have a scenario -- how is history changed as a result?
Make Lothar win, this keeps Middle Francia supreme. Essentially ITL's HRE is a medieval EU with a weak emperor ruling with the consent of the feudal kings and the pope.
 
Would a united(-ish) empire have a better chance at pushing back against the Viking Raids and/or Magyar Invasions?
The most obvious way, ISTM, would be to somehow get the Franks to abandon their custom of partitive inheritance.
Make Lothar win, this keeps Middle Francia supreme.
Other options include - - Louis the Pious having fewer surviving sons; unification that OTL came under Charles the Fat lasting longer; etc
 
With no PoDs prior to the death of Charlemagne, how can his empire still be around a century later? What are the latest PoDs we'd need for (1) West and East Francia to be united around this time (circa 913), and (2) are still ruled by a Carolingian? Bonus points if the growth in learning, the economy, and social infrastructure seen in the Carolingian (and OTL Ottonian) Renaissance(s) are wanked as well. And once we have a scenario -- how is history changed as a result?


then if we face a scenario in which the Carolingian empire does not collapse in itself, but even "prosper", we must necessarily focus on the last decades of Charlemagne's reign, from the death of his brother Carloman and his conquest of the Lombard kingdom, we see in Frankia an ever-constant growth of the economy, population and knowledge ( in part obviously due to the end of the continuous plague epidemics that hit Europe since 540, the other cause is naturally the formation of a more or less centralized state for the era and the region involved, which favors the rebirth of trade and the uniformity of knowledge ( both for the training of new bureaucratic personnel i.e. the clergy ( 1 ) but also to unite the various populations, all different from each other ), all also favored by the cessation of conflicts in the heart of the kingdom, after the conquest of Lombardy, a concept well before 800 AD was established in the Carolingian court itself, that is, that of Charles as a revived Constantine, also favored by his conquests and triumphs in the name of Christianity ( in practice the presumed break with the past due to his coronation in Rome had already been present for at least 20 years before ( 2 ) if the Empire were to survive longer it is very likely that a concept of Frankish ethnicity as the single glue of the empire would take hold more than in Otl, especially if we consider that the Ottonians, although of Saxon lineage, were very active in bringing out their policies as directly continuous with the Carolingian ones ( particularly in the Rhine regions and in Italy, as well as in the numerous interventions in West Frankia or Lotharingia ), naturally a more cohesive state that is not torn apart by internal strife can easily oppose the Magyar and Viking incursions ( if we consider that Otl France when it had a strong enough ruler was able to stop the raids on the coast immediately, I don't see why a stronger state couldn't do equally ) this is also the indirect result of increasing the Romance-speaking population of the empire as a whole ( which in the long run can become another important glue for its unity ) once again the weakness of the Carolingian emperors seriously begins to appear from peace of Verdun from 843 onwards, and then increased dramatically in the following decades ( with rare exceptions ) this could also partly favor the papacy, which would avoid one of its worst historical periods ( pornocracy, which really began with the collapse of central power in peninsula since the death of Louis II the Younger in 875 and the establishment of competing local dynasties ) this will also massively influence the development of Umayyad Iberia and Catalonia ( which under Louis the Pious was firmly under Frankish control, also because it was the place where his father had sent him to train ) and the eastward push of the peoples Germans ( until 900 the Bavarians were pushing into the Pannonian plain before being violently stopped by the Magyars ( 3 ) I also consider possible a previous expansion into the Slavic regions beyond the Elbe ( Otl Charles deported some of the last rebellious Saxons there in 804, furthermore in the last years of his reign he had engaged the armies of the empire in campaigns against the Danes / first Vikings ) therefore military actions on that front are quite likely, without forgetting the passive influence that the Franks exerted across the Channel ( 4 ) which was quite discreet lastly, a long-lasting existence of a fairly cohesive state to the east of Byzantium can provide a greater incentive for the latter to collaborate with it (it had already been done at a basic OTL level against the Bulgarians and Avars ) and ultimately propose a matrimonial alliance ( 5 ) between the two heirs of Rome ( although it may create discussions, I consider the Frankish empire a very just heir of Rome, since it brings together the Roman-derived traditions developed in the late Western empire with a political project, all carried out between the Roman church / papacy and the Germanic people most romanized ever ( and has survived the challenge of time, managing to effectively unite the new ( the Frankish rulers and their traditions ) with the old ( the Gallo-Latin population, the surviving Roman laws and administration, the clergy and the remaining Roman nobility etc )




P.s
Furthermore, I believe that not giving birth to Charles the Bald could at least partially mitigate the power struggles between Louis' eldest sons, given that it was his insistence on including him in the division of the empire that caused years of intense civil conflict because at least before then the other brothers had agreed to recognize Lothair as their supreme lord ( and the territories assigned to him were originally larger, see in particular the imperial division of 817 )


1 ) an example of this are the councils that Charlemagne called in 799 in Aachen and in Tours in 813 to standardize the beliefs and education of the ecclesiastics ( who also functioned as important bureaucrats in the empire, as they could read / write and count quite well ) see also the foundation of the Schola palatina in 780


2 ) indeed according to some historians, this idea was much older, given that Pepin and his sons were appointed by the pontiff as Roman patricians ( i.e. protectors of Rome ) in 751, which was then further sealed in 757 ( Pepin's last expedition to Italy against the Lombards )


furthermore, according to recent studies, Eginard's work was in fact written between 814 and 830, considerably late compared to the contested methods of the coronation, since the other contemporary chronicles agreed on the fact that Charles was anything but surprised and against at the ceremony. Both the "Annales regni Francorum" and the "Liber Pontificalis" report the ceremony, speaking openly of celebration, maximum popular consensus and evident cordiality between Charles and Leo III, with rich gifts brought by the Frankish sovereign to the Roman Church, it was, only later, around 811, in an attempt to attenuate the Byzantine irritation for the imperial title ( which Constantinople judged to be an unacceptable usurpation ), precisely in the " Annales Maximiani " was the element of revisiting the past concerning " the surprise and irritation " of the sovereign


3 ) I also consider the future development of the proto-Romantic languages in the Balkans interesting, since Otl, many of them were formed or disappeared in this period, see for example the Pannonian language which disappeared soon ( in the tenth century it remained only around Lake Balaton, in present-day Hungary ), while the Romanian language established itself in the Carpathian area, which gradually differentiated itself from the Italian group of the Adriatic, while in the 11th century the Aromanian group originated in the southern Balkans ( with the existence of a predominantly Romance-speaking empire in the West, how will these languages be influenced, could we perhaps see the court of Aachen try to attract these populations ? )

4 ) this soft power was very strong in Kent and Mercia ( although the relationship between Charles and Offa was at times stormy )


5 ) something already previously sought by Irene ( first for her son Constantine VI then for herself ), with the failed engagement between Louis II and one of Theodora's daughters, the widow of Emperor Theophilus in 843 and then the more successful attempts of the Ottonians Otl
 
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Make Lothar win, this keeps Middle Francia supreme. Essentially ITL's HRE is a medieval EU with a weak emperor ruling with the consent of the feudal kings and the pope.



it is certainly an excellent idea, but it must also be taken into account that the change in the concept of division of the kingdom born under the Carolingians was very different from that in use with the Merovingians, since the division did not imply the total breakup of the kingdom into de facto independent states, but more of a Roman-derived system of co-management of power ( which instead Otl led to the formation of two distinct entities that were increasingly less dependent on the other and with a marked "ethnic" basic culture very far from the original Frankish heritage, where we also witness the Frankish identity that lost ground in Germany ( except in Franconia )
 
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it is certainly an excellent idea, but it must also be taken into account that the change in the concept of division of the kingdom born under the Carolingians was very different from that in use with the Merovingians, since the division did not imply the total breakup of the kingdom into de facto independent states, but more of a Roman-derived system of co-management of power ( which instead Otl led to the formation of two distinct entities that were increasingly less dependent on the other and with a marked "ethnic" basic culture very far from the original Frankish heritage, where we also witness the Frankish identity that lost ground in Germany ( except in Franconia )



furthermore, even later than the reign of Lothair, a strong emperor would have been capable of influencing or possibly changing the kings subjected to him ( a clear example of Otto I, and his actions in Burgundy, West Frankia and above all Italy ) but this depended exclusively on his capacity, because as soon as the central control was lost, all the subordinates tried to regain ground and free themselves from it, finally we must consider that Frankia / HRE has repeatedly had opportunities to reunify ( totally or at least partially for the majority ) but either for for one reason or another this did not happen ( think of the expeditions of Arnulf of Carinthia, or that which never materialized by Henry the Fowler in 936 or the deaths in rapid succession of Charles the Bald's relatives which allowed him to unify for the last time all Frankish possessions )
 
Here’s my preferred PoD for the present - - Judith of Bavaria fails to provide any additional sons for Louis the Pious (maybe Charles the Fat is born a girl, etc); Pepin of Aquitaine predeceases his father as OTL, meaning Louis the Pious only has two surviving sons when he passes; from there, I don’t think it much of a stretch to assume there’s no equivalent to OTL’s Treaty of Verdun (843), and that Lothair could make Louis kneel to him as emperor (if he only had to deal with the one brother).

If Lothair’s brother Louis then outlives him (as he did OTL), then, in the event that Lothair splits his own lands among his own sons, said Louis is in a good position to be the new emperor. By the time he dies (OTL was 876), Lothair’s sons may all be dead (as they were OTL), and with fewer Carolingians competing for land and the throne, succession may well prove to be more stable (even if there is still an interregnum, albeit one far briefer than OTL).

What do you guys think?
 
Here’s my preferred PoD for the present - - Judith of Bavaria fails to provide any additional sons for Louis the Pious (maybe Charles the Fat is born a girl, etc); Pepin of Aquitaine predeceases his father as OTL, meaning Louis the Pious only has two surviving sons when he passes; from there, I don’t think it much of a stretch to assume there’s no equivalent to OTL’s Treaty of Verdun (843), and that Lothair could make Louis kneel to him as emperor (if he only had to deal with the one brother).

If Lothair’s brother Louis then outlives him (as he did OTL), then, in the event that Lothair splits his own lands among his own sons, said Louis is in a good position to be the new emperor. By the time he dies (OTL was 876), Lothair’s sons may all be dead (as they were OTL), and with fewer Carolingians competing for land and the throne, succession may well prove to be more stable (even if there is still an interregnum, albeit one far briefer than OTL).

What do you guys think?


it is actually a quite ideal scenario but at the same time very realistic ( it should also be considered that Otl in the first subdivision of the imperial possessions of 817, Louis had to be a simple king of Bavaria ( which in any case he had calmly accepted ) so it is probable that once Louis died ( who should have been king of Aquitaine ) Lothair and Louis would have agreed on the inheritance of his deceased brother ( in case he had no heirs, as happened on the death of Charles of Provence in 863 ) therefore I think it possible that Lothair's line, can reign over a good piece of Frankia, if we consider that Louis the Younger died Otl in 875 and when he succeeded he was both king of Italy and Provence ( as well as Emperor ) I can imagine his reign being broader and perhaps a bit longer than to reality ( it should also be remembered that he had no male children ) so it is easily feasible that Ludwig the German could succeed his nephew ( finding himself possibly inheriting a rather unified state up to that point, given that the civil wars of Otl are avoided and with a fairly linear succession, without too many changes at the top ( or the territory ) and all this could lay the foundation for a primordial administrative system (which can evolve slowly and not be fractured into infighting between factions fighting for the favor of the aspiring Carolingian of the moment, given that Otl the elites of the empire identified with theirs" regional monarchs "so we would have had the Lotharingians from Lothair, the Carolenians from Charles the Big etc, on the contrary in this scenario the main culture would have been the one common to most, the Frankish one, without the occurrence of ascension of any provincial minority derivation, except perhaps in Italy, with the Lombards
 
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Additional fun fact about OTL -- Louis the German only had one legitimate paternal grandson, Arnulf (son of Carloman), born 850. So an interregnum involving Louis’ sons fighting each other could very plausibly be a very short one; and it may well be the only period in the 9th Century when the Carolingian Empire isn’t united .

If that’s how the 9th Century looks, what does that mean for the 10th? Is it possible for this century or more-or-less stability to lay the groundwork for primogeniture succession being established in the 10th Century? Or would that be too early?
 
Additional fun fact about OTL -- Louis the German only had one legitimate paternal grandson, Arnulf (son of Carloman), born 850. So an interregnum involving Louis’ sons fighting each other could very plausibly be a very short one; and it may well be the only period in the 9th Century when the Carolingian Empire isn’t united .

If that’s how the 9th Century looks, what does that mean for the 10th? Is it possible for this century or more-or-less stability to lay the groundwork for primogeniture succession being established in the 10th Century? Or would that be too early?

considering that Otl HRE was rapidly evolving into a dynastic system and possibly of hereditary primogeniture ( at least with the Ottonian and Salian dynasties, then barely maintained over the centuries ) it is certainly possible that some war between relatives could lay the foundations for the creation of an ad hoc law to vaguely manage the succession ( focused on the aim of avoiding the repetition of similar situations ), but it must be taken into account that for the time the support of the nobility was also fundamental ( so I can imagine the formation of a some electoral system ( 1 ), very in line with the existing Otl ones of HRE and the first centuries of France ( i.e. until the first decades of the 11th/12th century approximately ) but very focused on the members of the Carolingian family and related relatives ( because I imagine that to consolidate control on the outskirts or important strategic areas, the various emperors created family ties with local families ( particularly in Saxony and Italy, two places where the pre-Frankish identity, although partially assimilated, remained important and prestigious, therefore something useful to look for ) finally I would like to say that if the empire manages to withstand those crises and external pressures without too many difficulties ( but rather exploits them to further develop a state apparatus and cohesion among its populations ) then once the boom of the 10th century arrives , we truly witness an immense unexpressed potential that can be released, considering the enormous amount of men available to the Carolingian emperor compared to his rivals ( excluding the Eastern Romans and perhaps the Ummayads ) and neighbors on the continent, well it is easy to foresee an expansion into new territories ( permitted by the logistics available at the time )


1 ) partially already existed in the late Carolingian Empire, but more as a way to be officially recognized by the nobility as legitimate rulers ( perhaps making the whole process almost as if it were an important formality, see it as the Habsburg confirmation to HRE after 1438 brought forward but of a few centuries )
 
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@Nuraghe Only TTL, the Emperor, ostensibly anyway, has jurisdiction over the entirety of continental Western Christendom (emphasis on “ostensibly”, for the time being anyway).
 
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@Nuraghe Only TTL, the Emperor, ostensibly anyway, has jurisdiction over the entirety of continental Western Christendom (emphasis on “ostensibly”, for the time being anyway).



More than apparently, if we consider that in OTL Charlemagne ( and vaguely his successors ) governed and actively influenced more than 70% of Latin rite Christianity ( with the rest divided between the rest of Iberia, the British Isles, Southern Italy and North Africa ), furthermore is collaborating with the papacy to do this, so it is more than just a question of appearance but a very concrete thing ( if we take into account that in this scenario the internal struggles within the empire have decreased then the population is even greater than in our reality ) it is very likely that the two-swords concept of Christianity will actually take hold in this TL, as opposed to the struggle for hegemony between spiritual and temporal power ( since clearly the latter is more able to resist )
 
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With no PoDs prior to the death of Charlemagne, how can his empire still be around a century later? What are the latest PoDs we'd need for (1) West and East Francia to be united around this time (circa 913), and (2) are still ruled by a Carolingian? Bonus points if the growth in learning, the economy, and social infrastructure seen in the Carolingian (and OTL Ottonian) Renaissance(s) are wanked as well. And once we have a scenario -- how is history changed as a result?
Okay ... there are many ways the "Carolingian Empire" could function and stay united.

Otto the Great had almost totally accomplished this by forcing West Francia to accept his suzerainty and his influence in their royal elections. If you have the Ottomans manage to eventually obtain West Francia, which isn't that hard to do, you could have Otto III live longer and truly rule a "Western Roman Empire" of sorts.

Alternatively there's also Charles the Fat who was the last ruler of all three realms. If he had a legitimate son by his wife Richardis or managed to successfully get his illegitimate son Bernard acknowledged by the Pope (it almost happened, but he died on the way), then Empire could stay united but highly decentralized with various regional players holding a lot more influence. Think of the situation of the Medieval Kingdom of France prior to Philippe II Auguste. There would be a broad idea of an "Empire" but local dukes would hold sway. Though at the same time, the feudal system as we know it wasn't quite fully set in place as titles like Counts and Count-Palatine (counts of the palace) were still regarded to some degree as temporary appointments by the Emperor which he could theoretically revoke.

Of course there are other POD's like Louis the Pious emerging victorious in the struggle against his rebellious sons, or Charlemagne partitioning his empire differently (something like his initial partition plan which was much more stable).

Then again if the Carolingians try to take a page out of the Byzantine Empire's books like the Ottonians were trying to do, they might simply appoint one of their sons as "Co-Emperor" or Caesar, designating as an equal ruler to him. Then when the current emperor died, all official titles, lands, and authority passed to the new Emperor who'd possess sole authority. If they can pull it off it would be an ingenious way of circumventing the Frankish custom of dividing land among family members (This was how the Capetians managed to circumvent the electoral system and transition the monarchy to be hereditary).
 
Okay ... there are many ways the "Carolingian Empire" could function and stay united.

Otto the Great had almost totally accomplished this by forcing West Francia to accept his suzerainty and his influence in their royal elections. If you have the Ottomans manage to eventually obtain West Francia, which isn't that hard to do, you could have Otto III live longer and truly rule a "Western Roman Empire" of sorts.

Alternatively there's also Charles the Fat who was the last ruler of all three realms. If he had a legitimate son by his wife Richardis or managed to successfully get his illegitimate son Bernard acknowledged by the Pope (it almost happened, but he died on the way), then Empire could stay united but highly decentralized with various regional players holding a lot more influence. Think of the situation of the Medieval Kingdom of France prior to Philippe II Auguste. There would be a broad idea of an "Empire" but local dukes would hold sway. Though at the same time, the feudal system as we know it wasn't quite fully set in place as titles like Counts and Count-Palatine (counts of the palace) were still regarded to some degree as temporary appointments by the Emperor which he could theoretically revoke.

Of course there are other POD's like Louis the Pious emerging victorious in the struggle against his rebellious sons, or Charlemagne partitioning his empire differently (something like his initial partition plan which was much more stable).

Then again if the Carolingians try to take a page out of the Byzantine Empire's books like the Ottonians were trying to do, they might simply appoint one of their sons as "Co-Emperor" or Caesar, designating as an equal ruler to him. Then when the current emperor died, all official titles, lands, and authority passed to the new Emperor who'd possess sole authority. If they can pull it off it would be an ingenious way of circumventing the Frankish custom of dividing land among family members (This was how the Capetians managed to circumvent the electoral system and transition the monarchy to be hereditary).

your comment is fantastic, I would just like to add two small details namely that the Ottonians had actually managed to "vassalise" so to speak the king of western Frankia ( given that Otto I intervened several times in the kingdom successfully, to support the Carolingian government Louis IV and his son, but at the same time he was also allied with Hugh the Great, he also made numerous campaigns in Lorraine, with the aim of further tying it to the empire ), the real problem occurred under the government of Otto II, who, being concentrated on subdue Italy and fight the Muslims, face numerous revolts instigated by his cousin Henry and the diatribe in Lorraine with the deposed dukes Reginardo and Lambert supported by King Lothair IV, as well as having to continue the process of subjugation and integration of the Slavs in the east, the first campaigns in Bohemia were under his reign, and then dying young, he could not give his son a more solid rule of the empire ( although his wife Theophanu did an extraordinary job in preserving the integrity of the royal power and recovering the land lost against the Slavs ) if Otto II had lived long, then it is probable that we would have seen a further step forward towards the process of centralization of the state, greater control over Italy ( and in particular over Rome ) the Lorraine that is directly integrated into the empire in a definitive manner and the consolidation of the eastern borders with the Slavic peoples ( in particular Bohemia and with the Veleti and the Obodrites )
 
He doesn't even have to live that long, just to age 45 or so; just so Otto III is old enough to assume title of Emperor.

well considering that Otl died at just 28 years old, it is a very long and possibly fruitful reign if he reaches the age of 45, in practice it means another 17 years of government, which can change events in the HRE a lot ( also it is likely that he has a few more children with his wife )
 
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while I was doing some research on my own, on the exarchate of Ravenna, I came to find an interesting detail, namely that during the reign of the iconoclastic Emperor Leo III ( 717-41 ) Italy reached such a critical point that there there were many who thought of offering the imperial crown to other political actors, possibly local, it was only the intervention of the pope that avoided a total political division with Constantinople due to the serious threat represented by King Luitpdrando for Ravenna itself ( which he occupied twice before its definitive conquest ) and obviously Rome, so at a later stage there was also an attempt to involve the Franks in the issue, even going so far as to suggest to Charles Martel a possible marriage between one of his sons and a daughter of the exarch in office at the time ( some historians lean towards Eutychius, but I am not so convinced of this ), therefore it is not impossible to think that some pontiff might think of recognizing a previous Frankish king as Roman emperor, especially if a policy hostile to Rome and uncaring of the Italian situation continues in Constantinople, remembering that Otl Pepin the short and the future Charlemagne were recognized as Roman patricians by the Pope and the people of the city in 755, is that the question of the imperial title circulated within the Caroline court from the actual conquest of Pavia in 774 ( I know very well that it is long before the Pod but I thought it would be interesting to add it to the discussion )
 
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well considering that Otl died at just 28 years old, it is a very long and possibly fruitful reign if he reaches the age of 45, in practice it means another 17 years of government, which can change events in the HRE a lot ( also it is likely that he has a few more children with his wife )


finally, it should not be forgotten that under his government, marital unions were strongly encouraged between the various noble houses of his kingdoms, in particular between the Frankish - Saxon and the Lombard elites ( but we also see similar methods in Lorraine and Bohemia, with the intention of gradually including it in the politics of the Reich ), with the aim of consolidating relations between the two kingdoms, but also of forcing the German nobles to support the Emperor in the military campaigns in Southern Italy, since many of them would have interests to be defended or gained locally ( 1 ) this process continued until under the Salians, but gradually lost importance in the imperial priorities ( I believe it was a wasted opportunity to amalgamate further the constituent kingdoms of the HRE ), and this could also be a very relevant factor in simplifying the government of the future Otto III, who would find himself in his hands, the construction already underway of the bureaucratic apparatus, a noble elite less regionalized and more inclined with imperial policies, greater influence in the territories with a Slavic majority ( which may already be moving towards inclusion within the Empire, to give you an example, the revolt of 983 totally destroyed the first important German settlements in the area ( such as Magdeburg and the original nucleus of Otl Brandenburg ), slowing down the assimilation process which continued until the 12th / 13th century ), and obviously the continuation of the policy of ingratiation of Italian families to consolidate royal control over the territory


although one wonders how Zoe would have found herself at the traveling court of her husband Otto III ( after all, one must consider the cultural shock she will have to face, from moving from the court of Constantinople to Italy, then Rome and finally Germany / Saxony ) furthermore in Otl she was very interested in court intrigues, here she will have to deal with totally different concepts and customs from a political point of view, it will be interesting to see how she will adapt to them


1 ) see for example Pandolfo Testadiferro ( Pandulf Ironead ), who was very loyal to the Ottonian party
 
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More than apparently, if we consider that in OTL Charlemagne ( and vaguely his successors ) governed and actively influenced more than 70% of Latin rite Christianity ( with the rest divided between the rest of Iberia, the British Isles, Southern Italy and North Africa ), furthermore is collaborating with the papacy to do this, so it is more than just a question of appearance but a very concrete thing ( if we take into account that in this scenario the internal struggles within the empire have decreased then the population is even greater than in our reality ) it is very likely that the two-swords concept of Christianity will actually take hold in this TL, as opposed to the struggle for hegemony between spiritual and temporal power ( since clearly the latter is more able to resist )




there is a small detail that I had not yet considered, namely how the relationship between the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms would drastically change with a more stable Carolingian Empire, given that in Otl the cultural and partly political hegemony of the Franks was very much felt in Kent, Wessex and in Mercia ( already starting from the 6th century ) , it may be that with the beginning of the Viking invasions ( which began on a large scale in the last years of Charlemagne ) said kingdoms asked for the Emperor's intervention to help them ( also because a more stable Frankia would not be exactly the easier / preferred half for Viking raids, which also turned out to be true in Otl, especially when there was a fairly competent Frankish king in power, who managed to drive the Vikings back into the sea without much effort ) thus not being able to let off steam on the coasts of the Frankish Empire, the mens of the North will inevitably focus their resources on the Anglo-Saxons kingdoms ( taking advantage of Heptarchy, which has heavily weakened their military capabilities, as well as the various local components hostile to them, such as the Welsh potentates ) to an even greater extent than what historically happened, so although it is a very complicated thing, I would not completely exclude a possible expedition ( or more ) of relief by the Carolingians, which could potentially be transformed with a possible occupation of southern England, how this could influence the development of Europe in future centuries will be very complicated to understand, I certainly don't think that direct Frankish control on the other side of the Channel will be able to last long, also because the Carolingians have priorities elsewhere ( at most I see it lasting until the Viking threat is deemed overcome or easily manageable ) we will certainly see as strengthening the Frankish cultural hegemony and further validating their claim to be a new Roman Empire ( also because I believe that the imperial court in Aachen will largely refer to the last period of Roman occupation on the island, for propaganda purposes, while highlighting how Constantinople which, while continuing to define itself as the true " Roman Empire ", was unable to do anything to help the poor British, respect the Franks and the Papacy, who have actively intervened on the island mainly as soft power but now also directly, with the aim of further celebrating the deeds of the restored Western empire ( 1 ) finally not forgetting the possible linguistic changes in the English language ATL, which could gain of new loanwords from Latin - Romance language well in advance of Otl )


1 ) this was how it was usually recognized HRE, when there was a friendly dynasty or government in Constantinople, especially under the Macedonians in Otl
 
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