Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Given that the biggest ship in British service at this point of time was HMS Hood, and I for one can not remember if she has been sunk yet ITTL. She surely must be the prime candidate for being sent to occupy the King George VI dry dock which was the largest in the world at the time. Or just for the irony you could put the KG5 Battleship inside the KG6 dry dock to have her bottom scraped.

RR.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
There's actually a bunch of sources saying that Singapore had no 15" HE shells;


Richard Holmes' book "The Bitter End" quotes one of the gunners from another battery saying the 15" had no HE.

Falk in "Seventy Days to Singapore" says the 15s had no HE and the 9.2s had only 30 rounds.

Farrell in "The Defence of Singapore 1941-42" says confirms that HE was scarce for the smaller guns and that the 15" had none. One 15" HE shell was sourced in the naval base.

Farrell makes the point that there was still concern that the Japanese could attack from seaward and that the Fixed Defences should be mainly reserved for that. The "fortress" wasn't really short of field artillery, with about 150 guns, but the problems were fields of fire, spotting of fall of shot, and lack of space to hide guns.
Hi Jas Tysoe, that's a good bit of detective work you've done there. My understanding, and I can't find my source, was, after a search through the 15-inch shells, three HE shells were found, although not listed. Some of the coastal guns had their arc's of fire improved by removing some of the gun-pit shielding, enabling them to bear more to the north.

But the point to make here is those guns, 6-inch, 9.2-inch and 15-inch guns were intended to defence the Island, and therefore the Naval Base from seaward attack. They were not there to defend the island from an attack from the Malayan mainland. Singapore Island is completely untenable in the medium term, unless you can resupply via the sea lanes, as she is not self sufficent in either food or fresh water.

If I'm writing about the arc's of the Singapore Coastal guns, and how many HE shell can be found, then I'm also writing about the loss of Singapore. And that brings me to an interesting thought, historically, with the mess of who was in command above him, Brooke-Popham, Pownall or Wavell, it could be argued that Percival lacked the backbone to suggest that the rump of the British 18th Division shouldn't land at Singapore, and have them turned back. I wonder, in my timeline, if Gort and Godwin-Austen could win that argument in the face of Churchill's bellicose stance.
 
Given that the biggest ship in British service at this point of time was HMS Hood, and I for one can not remember if she has been sunk yet ITTL. She surely must be the prime candidate for being sent to occupy the King George VI dry dock which was the largest in the world at the time. Or just for the irony you could put the KG5 Battleship inside the KG6 dry dock to have her bottom scraped.

RR.
OTL she was sunk on 24th May 1941

I don't think there was any POD in TTL that has changed that
 
May 1941 from the song "Sink the Bismarck"
I remember, "Sink The Bismarck" playing on the jukebox at the China Fleet Club in HK.
That would have been mid-70's.
I think that Johnny Horton's "North to Alaska" was also a selection. "The Battle of New Orleans"
had been removed sometime earlier!!
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Given that the biggest ship in British service at this point of time was HMS Hood, and I for one can not remember if she has been sunk yet ITTL. She surely must be the prime candidate for being sent to occupy the King George VI dry dock which was the largest in the world at the time. Or just for the irony you could put the KG5 Battleship inside the KG6 dry dock to have her bottom scraped.

RR.
Hi Ramp-Rat, both Hood and Bismarck were lost as was historically, see https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/page-52#post-23593989
 
MWI 41111415 The Shoot

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Friday 14 November;

Shoot! the big 9.2-inch gun roared out, a dozen binoculars fixed on the target, 12,000 yards distant, an old wooden barge, with a light wood and canvas superstructure. She was towed on a mile long line from HMS St Dominic, a Saint class tug of WW1 vintage, requisitioned from commercial interests off the Yellow River. A big splash, a good 400 yards over could be seen by all, including the two fortress observation posts, at Muka Head and the second to the east, both equipped with rangefinders and directors. Both reported to the battery plotting centre, who converted their coordinates into bearings and elevations, which were fed to the gun captain. Thirty seconds after the first shot, a second roared out, much improved, almost on line and less than 100 yards short.

Other than a few test firings, this was the first time these two guns of the 33rd Battery RA, Fort Auchry, had been fired. Located on the northern coast of Penang, not far from the fishing village of Batu Ferringhi, the fortification works were still incomplete. The guns were Mark X 9.2-inch BL, with Mark VII mountings, providing for a 35-degree elevation, which gave them a maximum range of 36,700 yds, just over 20 miles. They were hydraulically powered, allowing both shell and charge to be hoisted in a single load. The guns were mounted on a central steel pedestal in an open concrete gun pit, with a circular narrow gauge rail track around the gun. This allowed a trolley, which carried the shell and charge from their own ammunition lifts, to be manhandled around to the hydraulic loader at the rear of the gun, regardless of where the gun was pointing.

Below the gun pit were the separate ammunition bunkers, the lifts dropping straight into them. These bunkers were fed through steel doors by an access road, allowing ammunition re-supply. The whole instillation would present a very low profile, and once camouflaged, difficult to spot from the air. However, although the guns were operational, the building work was still unfinished, the steel roof over the gun pit had not been mounted yet, more concrete walls were still to be made, numerous snagging issues to be attended to and they had only provided enough ammunition for the exercises, the rest had yet to be moved in from the main magazine at Glugor.

Outside the battery command post Lt Col More, CO of the 11th Coastal Regt, together Brigadier Cyril Lyon, the Penang Garrison commander and Lt Gen Alfred Godwin-Austen, III Indian Corps looked on. Today was the start of an extended weekend of exercises on the island, with the complete call up of reservists allowing all units to be at full strength. Both the 6-inch guns of the 8th and 20th Coastal Battery's had already conducted live shoots, while the air defences had undergone a considerable number of live exercises in previous days. Nevertheless, beginning at 7pm, the entire garrison would be put through an intensive 48 hours of unbroken exercises.

Who wasn’t present in the exercises was the garrison’s normal infantry battalion, the 2nd Bn, 15th Punjab Regt, who last week had travelled down to Teluk Anson by rail. They had begun training with the 2/2 Australian Independent Company, and the 34th ML (Perak) Flotilla, on boat operations, to become adept at embarking and disembarking from ships, using the Kudat, the flotilla’s mother ship to work with. Replacing her was the 1st Bn, 8th Punjab Regt, loaned from the 6th Indian Bde, part of III Indian Corps. Having only been on the Island since Sunday, they were going to find the whole thing very challenging, being totally unfamiliar with the geography, as well as not really knowing anyone.

Tonight, would see some night manoeuvres, with the umpires’ declaring restrictions on some roads and bridges, ‘due to enemy action’, tomorrow a number of fires in military instillations would occur, demanding evacuations, and the ‘flooding’ of the main RAOC magazine at Glugor. Tomorrow night the garrison would beat off an enemy amphibious assault, the searchlights practicing illuminating craft for both the 6-inch batteries, as well as the coastal pillbox machine guns. And on Sunday, there would be a parachute attack on the airfield at Bayan Lepas. This would test the Indian HAA battery stationed there, along with a platoon of the SSVF (Singapore Straits Volunteer Force) and a company of the 1st Bn Bahawalpur Infantry.

The Indian States Forces, of which this battalion was one of five, had been sent to help reinforce Malaya Command, but owing to their light equipment levels, just rifles and a few Lewis light machine guns, training, and some suspicion as to their allegiance, were not considered as front-line troops. They had been found the niche role of airfield defence, a company at each. The SSVF machine gun battalion was also of some concern, despite being made up of only three companies, it was still undermanned, and consideration was being given drafting in some of the newly trained Malay or Chinese to man all the fortifications. Nevertheless, this is what the Penang Fortress garrison was made up of, and it would do its best.
 
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There growing it's coming down to the wire, but they are sweating now will save their blood later, and every little bit of practice and skill they gain will help.
 
1941, Friday 14 November;
The Indian States Forces, of which this battalion was one of five, had been sent to help reinforce Malaya Command, but owing to their light equipment levels, just rifles and a few Lewis light machine guns, training, and some suspicion as to their allegiance, were not considered as front-line troops. They had been found the niche role of airfield defence, a company at each.
Yes, this is a point, the INA didn't come out of nowhere.
A minority of the Indian Army personnel might not be team players.
 
Who wasn’t present in the exercises was the garrison’s normal infantry battalion, the 2nd Bn, 15th Punjab Regt, who last week had travelled down to Teluk Anson by rail. They had begun training with the 2/2 Australian Independent Company, and the 34th ML (Perak) Flotilla, on boat operations, to become adept at embarking and disembarking from ships, using the Kudat, the flotilla’s mother ship to work with. Replacing her was the 1st Bn, 8th Punjab Regt, loaned from the 6th Indian Bde, part of III Indian Corps. Having only been on the Island since Sunday, she was going to find the whole thing very challenging, being totally unfamiliar with the geography, as well as not really knowing anyone.

Referring to infantry battalions as "she/her" as if they were ships is a new one on me.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Indian States Forces and ammunition provision for Singapores coastal artillery.


There for those not familiar with the situation during the British control over India, which despite what is commonly believed was never total. India during the decades of British rule, could basically be divided into two parts, then British Raj and the Princely States. If you were within the British Raj, you were under the control of the British administration whose head was the King Emperors representative the Viceroy, and a proto democratic government that was semi elected and contained some Indian nationals. If however you were in a Princely State, you fell under the jurisdiction of an absolute ruler, who while he did have obligations to the King Emperor and had at his side a British representative. Who’s primary job was to prevent the Prince from doing anything to stupid, and ensuring that British interests were respected. And so there were three armies in India, the British Army, the Indian Army and the Princely States Armies. The British Army was majority British, but had a large formal and informal native component. So while a British infantry battalion was composed of British troops and officers, it would have attracted a number of Indian ancillaries who were on the battalion roles and paid by the British, mostly in the supply and service sectors like the cookhouse and stores. Fun fact during the Irish troubles in the sixties, seventies etc, the British built a fort from shipping containers, and inside was a canteen/shop run by a Pakistani whose grandfather had been a tailor to a British regiment in India, and the family had followed the drum through Aden, Cypress, Britain to Northern Ireland. A British artillery regiment would have British officers and gunners, but the ammunition supply column, had a British officer in command, while the Indian troops who brought the ammunition to the guns were overseen by Indian officers. In addition to the formal Indian members of a British army unit, there were a host of informal members, no British soldier in India cleaned his own boots, washed and pressed his uniform, made his bed or cleaned his barracks. All these jobs were done by various locals, who while not on the units strength, and didn’t travel with the unit if it was relocated or went into the field. Were part and parcel of the efficient running of a British unit. The best example of this is the seventies British TV comedy show, ‘It ain’t half hot mum’ which was written by an in one case acted by people who had experienced the system, and while greatly exaggerated for comic effect, was reasonable accurate.

The second Army in India was the British Indian Army, with a mix of British, Indian and Nepalese units, and was mostly paid for by the Indian Government. Throughout the twenties and thirties it had been subject to major changes, and directly commissioned Indian officers were now being integrated into the the officers mess, while the highly skilled and experienced native officers, all former senior NCO’S, were steadily being fazed out except in the Gurkha units. This army could be divided into two, the home service units and the devisions and units that were equipped and trained to fight alongside the British Army overseas. This wasn’t a colonial army, but was a thoroughly modern force as good as any other in the world, even the home service units could with the appropriate training and equipment quickly be brought up to the same standard as the A-Line units. The third Army and by far the worst was the Indian States Forces, basically the private armies of the various Indian Princes. While up until the turn of the century the very best of them had been a match for the Indian Army, since the end of WWI, the sheer cost of maintaining them to the same standard as the Indian Home Service units, was beyond the pocket of even the richest Prince. And so they had become over time toy soldiers equipped with obsolete and hand me down weapons, totally inadequately trained, and officered by British officers who had been asked to leave the Indian Army, or indigenous officers with little to no formal training. Their terms and conditions were not as good as those of the British Indian Army, and while they might look good on a formal parade. And could just about handle a riot if push came to shove, anything more challenging or complicated would require the British or British Indian to step in and take charge. These forces for all the obvious disadvantages, had an additional burden to bear. They knew that they were looked down upon by both the British and British Indian armies, who made it plain that they didn’t regard them as real soldiers, like them. Sent by their Princes primarily as a jester to curry favour with the Raj, overseas in most cases personally reluctantly, they were at the bottom of the list in a region that itself was close to bottom of the list for equipment. And their training and re-equipment was not a priority for the military authorities, so they have been split up and assigned third line duties. Airfield and coastal battery defence. Garrisoning the cities, in support of the civil power was reserved for the in British eyes far more dependable green British Indian Army formations.

It can come as no surprise that after the fall of Singapore, they were very susceptible to the siren voices of the various groups claiming to represent the voice of the true Indian freedom movement, whose aim was to liberate India from the rule and tyranny of the British and their lick spit Princes. Remember in a lot of cases the Prince was not of the same religion as them, which added to the sense of alienation that they felt. Abandoned in their eyes by the British authorities and their own Prince, trapped in a foreign land, having watched the mighty British suffer a humiliating defeat, they were ripe for the false blandishments of the Nationalist leaders. However ITTL, given slightly better leadership, training and equipment, and never themselves suffering a major defeat or the British as appears increasingly likely, not being defeated in Malaysia. The chances of a INA being anything other than a paper formation with a few hundred at most personnel, is slim to none. The vast majority of the ISA forces will never see anything other than minor action, be slowly trained up to a much higher standard, receive more modern equipment. And eventually replace the BIA, units in the garrison role, as they transfer from second line responsibilities to being active front line forces. For those who are not British especially our sundered cousins in America and those who are too young, and find the complexity of the British situation in India totally illogical, it believe it or not worked. Remember Britain is despite the constant moaning of a small number of permanently malcontents, still a constitutional monarchy with a part hereditary part appointed second chamber to parliament. No one elects our judges or police chiefs, or any other position in government, local or national, nor do we as such have a written constitution. Does it make sense or is it democratic, of course not old chap, but its the way we have done things since time immemorial, with cutting off a Kings head when needed, the fool got French ideas don’t you know. And non of the other systems have to our mind had the time yet to prove themselves better, give it another thousand years and we might reluctantly change. But definitely not to any French system system, thank you very much, we had them in charge after the Battle of Hastings, and it was a complete disaster.

As for the ammunition for the coastal artillery around Singapore, and why it didn’t have any HE ammunition. It was principally designed repel a seaborne assault, by armoured warships, and that along with the expensive of storing HE ammunition in a hot and humid environment. Not only do you have to provide protected storage, proof against enemy shellfire. But it also has to be fully air conditioned, with both temperature and humidity control, in an era when A/C was a very expensive and complex new technology. In addition if your enemy ground forces are within effective artillery range, you have basically lost already. However given the improvements large and small that have been made in Singapore and Malaya ITTL, I personally believe that the Japanese will be very lucky to get within 200 miles of Singapore Island, and more likely to be stopped 300 hundred miles away. And while given that this TL is close to ours in all other areas, and the conflict in the Middle East, Mediterranean and Atlantic. Are for all intents and purposes the same as was, the British will have for the time being very little to spare to conduct a significant counter attack, and drive the Japanese back across the Thai border. But without the losses of personnel and equipment suffered during the fall of Singapore and the subsequent campaign in the DEI. The British should be able by the end of 1942, to drive the Japanese out of Malaya back into Thailand, retain control of Burma and the Burma Road, while alongside the Dutch hold on to Sumatra and Java. And with that vital raw materials especially rubber that were lost thanks to the fall of Singapore, still available to the Anglo American war industries. Both Britain and America were be in a much stronger position in 1943 than they were, and once North Africa has been captured from the Axis, and the Mediterranean is open once again to the transit of merchant shipping. The Allied position is only going to improve day by day, and the shortage of personnel that the British suffered in 1944, is going to be delayed until the start of 1945, by which time the Germans will basically on their knees.

RR.
 
Thank you Ramp Rat for the explanation of the military situation in India. One thing that I, as a student of history in the US, was that some of the Officers experienced a class system in the British army with the one in the Regular Army units 1st down to the ones in the supply and services units in the Indian army being the lowest. Do you have any idea of the truth to that pre WW1.
 

Driftless

Donor
Who of British generals in WW2 had their origins (or lengthy service) with the BIA? I believe Auchinlek was one, but I'm sure there were many more.
 
Bits of USN information starting in the mid 1920s the USN began monitoring Japanese navy communications; Station ABLE at the U.S. Consulate in Shanghai starting 1924, Stations CAST at Cavite, and HYPO at Honolulu (Pearl Harbor) 1925, and BAKER on Guam 1927. In late 1940 the 27 men of ABLE were moved to and merged with 60 men at CAST; in Mid 1941, BAKER was merged with HYPO. In 1921 the office if Naval Intelligence was able to obtain and copy page for page the current (1918) Japanese Navy RED code. This was the first step that led the USN forward toward having a window into Japanese Navy codes and communications.
 
According to wikipedia, this lot

Incudes bill slim, frank messervy, hastings ismay, and as you said, claude auchinleck.

Ismay went from serving in the 21st prince albert victors own cavalry in india, to the camel corps in british somaliland, to churchill's principal military assistant from 1940 to 45, and finished as the first secretary general of NATO.

In addition nearly all british officers of any seniority will have served in india at one time or another.
 
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Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Thank you Ramp Rat for the explanation of the military situation in India. One thing that I, as a student of history in the US, was that some of the Officers experienced a class system in the British army with the one in the Regular Army units 1st down to the ones in the supply and services units in the Indian army being the lowest. Do you have any idea of the truth to that pre WW1.

Was there a distinct class system in the officers of the British Army, and to a much lesser extent right up to this day, of course its Britain old chap everything is based around class. At the top of the tree of the Infantry and Calvary were the members of the Household Division, that was the brigade of guards, which pre WWI consisted of the Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots and Irish guards, as the Welsh guards were only formed during the war. And the household calvary, the Blues and Royals, and the Life Guards, you had to be seriously well connected and posh to get into any of these regiments. And it didn’t matter how well connected or posh you were, if you didn’t have a substantial private income, you wouldn’t be able to afford to become a member of any of these regiments, nothing south of a thousand a year was going to cut the mustard. And this when a working man would be on just over a hundred pounds a year, and a doctor would consider himself well off with five hundred pounds a year. After the household division things get more complicated, it cost more to be in the calvary, Winston cost his father a pretty penny as his marks were so low when he passed out of Sandhurst no infantry regiment would accept him, and he had to go into the calvary. Various infantry units had different requirements and reputations with the rifles being regarded as the most intelligent, and some being more fashionable than others. The engineers and artillery all of whom went to the RMA Woolwich, and had never unlike the fellow’s in the infantry and cavalry, been required to purchase their commissions, and whose promotion was strictly on merit and service, required a level of intelligence higher than the infantry or cavalry, and their officers could probably get by with a private income under two hundred pounds a year. While officers in the various supply and support services were much lower down the totem pole socially and could possibly scrape by simply on their wages, but most would be required by their Colonel to have some sort of private income. This also applied to the Territorial and Yeomanry, where it wasn’t just a question of having the education and income to be an officer, you had to be off the right sort socially. The Indian army was by no means the lowest of the low, and pre WWI was very picky in choosing its officers, and itself had various high and low units, and for British officers you had to pass a strict personal examination by the Colonel of the unit in the UK, and on passing out of your service Academy with a suitable mark, would be then expected to serve as a supernumerary officer for a year in a comparable British unit. If you want to know what was considered the lowest of the low, pre and post WWI, it was the West Indies Regiment, were an officer could easily live off his pay but you stood a good chance of catching a tropical disease. Young Bill Slim who rose to become a Field Marshal and to my mind the greatest British General of WWII, was originally slated to go into the West Indies Regiment as his family were short of cash, but luckily found enough for him to go into the Gurkhas , and the rest as they say is history. Note he was one of the very few who managed to get along with Vinegar Joe and was respected by Joe, who offered to place himself under Slims command even though as a theatre commander he technically outranked Slim.

RR.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Gentlemen my apologies I forgot to mention in my most recent post two groups of officers who fell outside the basic conventions of all the other officers in the British Army. That is medical doctors and vets, both of who had to before they took up positions in the British Army, gain their respective professional qualifications in the civilian world. And whether a doctor was a regimental surgeon or a doctor/surgeon allocated to an RAMC field hospital or in war time any of the intermediate positions after a regimental aid post. Because of the age on entry into the Army and their professional standing, along with the fact that they weren’t in the train of command of the units command structure. Not only were they better paid than a line officer of equivalent rank, they could be a social inferior to all the other officers, and able to tell even the regiments CO no. They could also cause the same CO to be removed from command on medical grounds, and replaced with another officer without being subjected to the charge of mutiny. And vets too were in a similar position, but couldn’t however remove from command a senior officer, but could have him charged for abuse of the animals under his command.

RR.
 
Young Bill Slim who rose to become a Field Marshal and to my mind the greatest British General of WWII, was originally slated to go into the West Indies Regiment as his family were short of cash, but luckily found enough for him to go into the Gurkhas , and the rest as they say is history. Note he was one of the very few who managed to get along with Vinegar Joe and was respected by Joe, who offered to place himself under Slims command even though as a theatre commander he technically outranked Slim.

RR.
Agree on Slim. Auk was given a raw deal. He requested time to reorganize and reinforcements before 2nd El Alamein and was canned. Monty was given more time and more reinforcements than Auk had requested. Monty was British Army.

Auk 1st El Alamein
150,000 troops
179 tanks

Monty 2nd El Alamein
231,000 troops
1,029 tanks *

* Including 52 of the latest American-built Sherman tanks, 90 M7 Priest self-propelled howitzers
 
For those who are not British especially our sundered cousins in America and those who are too young, and find the complexity of the British situation in India totally illogical, it believe it or not worked. Remember Britain is despite the constant moaning of a small number of permanently malcontents, still a constitutional monarchy with a part hereditary part appointed second chamber to parliament. No one elects our judges or police chiefs, or any other position in government, local or national, nor do we as such have a written constitution. Does it make sense or is it democratic, of course not old chap, but its the way we have done things since time immemorial, with cutting off a Kings head when needed, the fool got French ideas don’t you know. And non of the other systems have to our mind had the time yet to prove themselves better, give it another thousand years and we might reluctantly change. But definitely not to any French system system, thank you very much, we had them in charge after the Battle of Hastings, and it was a complete disaster.
Brilliant :closedeyesmile:
Every time I read about how the British and also the Dutch aquired and ruled there Indian and Indonesian empire, it surpisess me. It appears to me that it is distinctivly different as the other European colonial empires.
 
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