The idea that in a victorious CSA might have ended with a Pacific coast and having lost in this way, the westernmost point in the CSA will be around Fort Smith, Arkansas.Between Texas, AZ and however you count not-Oklahoma, then yes, definitely
The idea that in a victorious CSA might have ended with a Pacific coast and having lost in this way, the westernmost point in the CSA will be around Fort Smith, Arkansas.Between Texas, AZ and however you count not-Oklahoma, then yes, definitely
My nomination would be for a line directly south from the WV/OH/KY triple point, though I'm not sure if it keeps that city that had the Kentucky Fried massacre in the Confederacy...Def feel free to chime in! The Kentucky River would make for an unlikely hard boundary rather than symbolic one, for exactly the reason you express
Don’t worry. The confederacy will regain Kentucky and Texas when Long gets into power.It's when you look at maps like this that you realize that by the time a Treaty is signed the CSA is going to be literally half the size it was.
This really is going to look more like Trianon than Versailles
Yeah, the problem with the Kentucky river is that you can't use it north of the Lexington-Frankfort area without giving the confederates Covington, with all of the issues that represents, and you can't really use it south of Lexington-Frankfort either, since it flows east-west out of the Appalachians before turning north before it flows into the Ohio. You could use the Dix, one of its tributaries that does flow along the correct axis, but that one originates within Kentucky itself, so you'd need to freehand it at the very southern edge of the border.Def feel free to chime in! The Kentucky River would make for an unlikely hard boundary rather than symbolic one, for exactly the reason you express
Didn't many of the unionists from this area leave?A thing to consider with dividing Kentucky is that the most hardcore Unionist area was the Cumberland Plateau, which is right on the Tennessee border and makes finding a border all that much harder. How much the unionist feeling lingers on nearly 60 years after secession, I don't know, but I'd imagine it's still, at bare minimum, the part of the state that would mind leaving the CSA/joining the US (which, still unclear if this is a division between a Republic or US State of Kentucky) the least.
Lol that’s pretty goodHe'll never use my expertise - because if he did Dems would win every election 65/35 haha
ayupThe idea that in a victorious CSA might have ended with a Pacific coast and having lost in this way, the westernmost point in the CSA will be around Fort Smith, Arkansas.
Yeah, the problem with the Kentucky river is that you can't use it north of the Lexington-Frankfort area without giving the confederates Covington, with all of the issues that represents, and you can't really use it south of Lexington-Frankfort either, since it flows east-west out of the Appalachians before turning north before it flows into the Ohio. You could use the Dix, one of its tributaries that does flow along the correct axis, but that one originates within Kentucky itself, so you'd need to freehand it at the very southern edge of the border.
If I may, I've taken the liberty to roughly sketch out what I think a realistic boundary that's acceptable to all parties would look like. It would:
-Allow West KY to keep Covington and its environs(obvious hugely beneficial to them, and likely a red line for the US in any case), as well as Frankfort, which if it remains the capital would be important for symbolic reasons
-Give the confederates all of the white majority mountainous areas in the east, as well as Lexington, which is realistically the only urban area of any decent size that they can claim
-Give the US and CSA a small border along the Ohio, but away from any large urban areas, which both sides should be ok with for trade reasons, although ensuring that it remains demilitarized would likely be another red line for the US
This is only meant to be a rough sketch, and you could definitely quibble with the exact placement, especially at the extreme north/south. Curious to hear people's thoughts.
There’d definitely be some small adjustments to where I’d place the border, but these are both relatively close.View attachment 865951
Splitting off just the east region on this map could work, potentially also including the E8 area in the "free commonwealth". That would leave all major cities and most rail lines in US friendly hands, and protect Cincinnati. If you were worried about the area south of Louisville you could also leave E1 and E2 areas in US friendly hands.
I think realistically any border in that area would be extremely difficult to enforce, but I also think that eastern Kentucky would be difficult enough to govern that splitting it off could be appealing. Doubly so since iirc most of the unionists left after the civil war. Would also make for a "interesting" borderland, I could see it quickly becoming a hub for cross-border smuggling and a potential hiding spot for all kinds of bandits, guerillas, warlords, etc.
Correct. Not all, obviously, many reconciled themselves to the Confederacy, but the majority of the Upper South’s unionists (including Andrew Johnson, who I believe I had as a Cabinet officer in the 1860s and 1870s) either stayed or went northDidn't many of the unionists from this area leave?
I just don't see Lexington ending up in the Rump Confederate Kentucky. The US would have run supply lines through there to Knoxville, so that area would not only have been conquered, it would have had quite a few Negro soldiers guarding it. (who will strangely never get disarmed by the US Army.)Lol that’s pretty good
ayup
There’d definitely be some small adjustments to where I’d place the border, but these are both relatively close.
Correct. Not all, obviously, many reconciled themselves to the Confederacy, but the majority of the Upper South’s unionists (including Andrew Johnson, who I believe I had as a Cabinet officer in the 1860s and 1870s) either stayed or went north
Granted Knoxville was very much a secondary theater to west and central TennesseeI just don't see Lexington ending up in the Rump Confederate Kentucky. The US would have run supply lines through there to Knoxville, so that area would not only have been conquered, it would have had quite a few Negro soldiers guarding it. (who will strangely never get disarmed by the US Army.)
(Hmm. Choices for what to do with Weaponry in the US draw down from the GAW. Sell into to one side or another in the CEW, sell it to the Kentucky Negros, destroy it. Could be an interesting political question. )
There is a nice Geographical definition for the area that I expect to stay confederate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_Plateau...
Which the more that I look at it may give the Cumberland River consideration for the most screwed up river politically post GAW. Rising on the Cumberland Plateau , which I presume will remain confederate, flowing into the KFR, then into Confederate Tennessee, then back into the KFR and flowing into the Ohio.
One thing I’ve considered ITTL, though, is the limits on transportation and non-internal markets pose on certain areas on both sides. Is Lexington as important if shipments aren’t headed north as much? Conversely, is St. Louis quite as large without being the fulcrum at which South meets West?Lexington was also (and to an extent still is) a major rail hub, giving it back to the Confederates would not only give their rump Kentucky population and prestige, but also a vital transport link.
True, but became more major as the primary push went to Atlanta relative to Alabama and Mississippi. Lexington is the heart of Horse country, how much does that change? (and does it make sense to have a slave as a jockey?)Granted Knoxville was very much a secondary theater to west and central Tennessee
One thing I’ve considered ITTL, though, is the limits on transportation and non-internal markets pose on certain areas on both sides. Is Lexington as important if shipments aren’t headed north as much? Conversely, is St. Louis quite as large without being the fulcrum at which South meets West?
It's over.....Part XI: From These Ashes, Nothing Grows
Omnimous.... i like it!Part XI: From These Ashes, Nothing Grows
It is in otl from:?Part XI: From These Ashes, Nothing Grows
"...that grand, majestic bird;
that the same Vesuvian ash which buried grand Pompei,
Now where Naples' olives grow.
That from death comes birth,
From destruction rejuvenation.
But such laws of nature end along the Mississippi;
Across the sea to our fallowed shores the phoenix does not fly.
For sink your hands into the cooling soot of what once was Dixie, and see!
From these ashes, nothing grows."
Me to the crybabies down Dixie way:But such laws of nature end along the Mississippi;
Across the sea to our fallowed shores the phoenix does not fly.
For sink your hands into the cooling soot of what once was Dixie, and see!
From these ashes, nothing grows."
From nothing, I wrote this just now because I liked the name of the PartIt is in otl from:?
Yay indeed lolSo, the US dictates what the "New American Order" is essentially like, whilst continuing to watch how the world burns around them?
They have won the war, but not necessarily the Peace...
And then the Central European War happens....
Yay!
Maybe they should cry more?Me to the crybabies down Dixie way:
God, I'm already dreading the copium and it hasn't even really happened yet.Maybe they should cry more?