The “Magnificent Age” - Catherine II TL
- Thread starter alexmilman
- Start date
If I guessed “stuff” correctly, this is an exaggeration: she liked stallions but only those with two legs. 😂
I am 90% sure that this was just an attack from her enemies after death
😜😜😜😜😜😜 Just the idle thoughts on the subject 😜😜😜😜😜😜
[You and @Aluma are keeping me … shall we say “inspired” 👏👏👏👏]
Putting aside a real improbability of the rumor, you being (un)sure is not a decisive argument unless you are a deep specialist in the intimate life of that period and even then proving the negative things is quite difficult. 😜
I assume that this is just a laudable result of your widely announced monarchism and across the board devotion to the things royal. However, why do you think that the rumor would be spread by the enemies? Think about a positive PR potential: if you have a reputation in some area it would better be really great in it (and, actually, in the XX century this rumor was repeated with a certain degree of an admiration). 😂😂😂😂
Out of all bad things that could be and were not said about her after her death this one was going to be the least damaging. Speaking of which, the posterity “attributed” to a contemporary poet Barkov a pornographic poem “Catherine and Orlov”, which he simply could not write: of course, he was writing the pornography but in a language of his time, not one of post-Pushkin era. 😂
BTW, I see that you are back to English: I take it that your teacher was either extremely impressed by your progress in French or gave up upon what proved to be an impossible task. In any case, it is nice to communicate with you without GT. 😜
😜😜😜😜😜😜
To put it mildly, rumor or truth of that type circulating during her life time could result in a close familiarity with S.Sheshkovsky and his office, which, as the rumor goes, could be extremely unpleasant. 😉
I have always been told that I am quite inspiring
I am quite a specialist in Ekaterina's intimate life, I was part of it 😜
Surprisingly this is not due to my devotion to monarchy rather, just what I learned. Also when I created my account I had no idea what to name myself, if you have a suggestion I will follow suit
"Pornographic poem" are two words I never thought I would see together
Yes, I have returned to the language of what did we call it, the dastardly English?
Yes, she needed at least one buffon to convince her that invading India was a completely sound and logistically logical plan 😋
How about BengaliTsar
Meanwhile I got a collection of those
Granted, its all in portuguese, but I "found" them when I was a teen and who am I to discard books?
That also would be french
Why would I tell her that?
I am a Telugu, not a Bengali, though I appreciate your thought
Any recommendations
TeluguKhan then!
Dont leave mouses near any holes, the french seem to be oddly into that
Some 4D chess attempt to beat Britain
4. Payoffs
4. Payoffs
Trivia. At that time Russian Empire had only three state awards: St. Andrew (the highest), St. Alexander Nevsky and St. Catherine (awarded exclusively to the females). All three were the high level orders which could be given only to the high-ranking personages.
As a result, at the start of her reign Catherine had very limited options in the terms of rewarding the ordinary scumbags … oops, the heroes of the coup for their services: money or their equivalent (estates with the serfs) or promotions. Or both.
Shortly before the coronation, one of the old courtiers who served both Anna Ioannovna, the Infant Tsar John Antonovich, Elizabeth Petrovna, and Peter III, who was deposed by his wife who was preparing to become Catherine II, told her: "What a pity that you are not surrounded by more honest people," hinting that her inner circle is made up of famous treasury thiefs. "I know," the Empress replied, "but I need them."
Catherine II, with the scarcity of the treasury she had after Peter III, had to get out and look for opportunities to encourage the loyalty of the people around her. First of all, it was necessary to award those who participated in the coup and helped to get the crown. After all, the desire of the rest of the nobility to serve the new sovereign depended on how generous the awards would be to the putschists.
The new Empress paid off the Guards soldiers without delay in the days of the coup that began on June 28, 1762. The regiments of the Guards then took to the streets of St. Petersburg in order to stop any attempts by Peter III's supporters to support the deposed emperor. But in fact, the capital was put at their full disposal for three days. Soldiers broke into wine and edible shops, robbed wealthy passers-by, especially foreigners. Eyewitnesses recalled that the best pass to travel around the city in those days was silver and gold coins. And if the soldiers were satisfied with the fee for the passage through the picket, they let the carriage even without the usual swearing at the passengers. The Guards also earned a good job on the protection of houses, the owners of which quickly understood that in order to preserve the property, it was best to agree with an officer or sergeant, to contribute to their well-being and to get a couple of sober soldiers to protect themselves from their comrades in arms who were enjoying their short-term power.
Much more was required to pay for the services of high-ranking participants in the conspiracy - land, peasants and a lot of money. Catherine II could not go the way used by the former monarchs - to take away lands and estates from some and reward them to others - Catherine II could not: the family ties in the Russian noble class were painfully complex and diverse. If you touch one family, dozens or even hundreds of others will be offended. And even during the reign of Elizabeth Petrovna, the nobility was not accustomed to confiscation.
Therefore, the new empress had no choice but to go all-in and distribute state lands that were owned by the Grand Dukes, and then the Moscow tsars from time immemorial, with peasants who had not previously known the power of the landlord. The risk was huge, because the income from these lands replenished the personal treasury of monarchs and the storehouses of royal palaces. However, was it worth thinking about the distant future when the blackest day for her - another coup - could happen literally at any moment. [2] Catherine had to act fast.
The high ranking personages, including Hetman of Little Russia Kirill Razumovsky, due to an acute shortage of cash, were awarded not with monetary awards, but with an increase to the annual salary by 5 thousand.
Initially it was supposed to give estates to only 19 people and give almost everyone 1000 souls [1] (a total of 17,029 souls), and the rest to be awarded with money and rinks, but then many, instead of money, probably at their own request, received the estate. Instead of 19 people were awarded with inhabited estates in the hereditary possession total of 30 persons, and the total number of granted peasants has changed little: namely, 18,277 souls were distributed, so that each person received less than expected before - from 250 to 1,027 souls. Out of that number 12,177 souls were given from palace estates, 4,700 from sovereign-owned estates, and from which estates the two persons (1,400 souls) were granted, it is unknown. The main personages, including Grigory and Alexey Orlov, got 800 souls each or, if they wanted money, 24,000 rubles. Active participants of the conspiracy, who were not among its leaders, received 600 souls, that is, 18 thousand rubles each. And the tertiary putschists had to be content themselves with four hundred souls. So, at the first glance, the awards were rather moderate and distributed justly. But only at the first glance.
The sources.
The biggest source of the gifts were palace estates. The peasants belonged to the territories handled by the court administration and used to maintain the imperial palaces and properties.
By the time of Catherine II's accession to the throne, 62,052 souls of the sovereign’s peasants remained undistributed, and out of that pool most of the awards were made. Thus, from these estates, the Orlov brothers received 2,929 souls in 1762, and in 1764. As a result, within three years the number of sovereign’s peasants decreased by 10,265 souls. This was a noticeable hit to Catherine’s personal income but, sitting on the bayonets had its obvious disadvantages.
Another, rather limited pool were the estates confiscated by the state for the debts to the state bank or, in the earlier reigns, taken from the persons who fell into a disfavor.
In some cases the government had to buy the properties to use them as the gifts.
The brothers.
Formally, the main figure was Grigory, Catherine’s lover with whom she had a bastard child, Alexey Bobrinsky.[3] He was handsome, personally brave and rather good natured but this is pretty much a complete a list of his good qualities. After the coup he was promoted to major-general. On the same day, he was awarded the title of active chamberlain, the Order of St. Alexander Nevsky and a sword decorated with diamonds.
On the day of her coronation, September 22 (October 3), 1762, Empress Catherine II promoted Major General Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov to lieutenant general and appointed her adjutant-general. In addition, by the decree of September 22 (October 3), 1762, Chamberlain Ivan, Lieutenant General Grigory, Guards Major Alexei, Chamber Junkers Fyodor and Vladimir Grigorievich Orlov were elevated, with their descending offsprings, to the count's dignity of the Russian Empire.
The problems started immediately after the coup and kept getting more serious after the coronation when the brothers started treating the state Treasure as their own purse. Almost every week they asked the Empress and received 5-10 thousand rubles each. And despite the fact that their position and influence differed quite significantly, all the money received by the brothers at first were divided equally, preserving in the relationship and other elements of the Russian patriarchal life they were used to since childhood. It was said, for example, that the older brother could beat any of the younger ones for the guilt without looking at the ranks.
The Empress gave Grigory the favorite estate of her predecessor Elizabeth Petrovna - Ropsha near St. Petersburg. In addition to the magnificent palace, the estate included a luxurious garden, and most importantly, it numbered 12,000 acres of land and 1,100 peasant souls. During trips to Moscow, Orlov could live in any of the royal palaces and use the palace storehouses and carriages without any restrictions. Moreover, the Empress collected for Orlov in a special collection of all kinds of precious things and trinkets, and so that the favorite did not suffer from lack of funds (although he received a very significant amount from his estates annually - 200,000 rubles), Catherine also assigned him a state pension of 150,000 rubles annually.
This avalanche of the gifts could continue but:
Obviously, Grigory became a liability rather than an asset but for Catherine there were two major considerations:
The first part of advise was not a problem: the former Rumyantsev’s army had been marching out for Prussia and placing these troops as Munnich proposed made sense because it would mean a reasonably short march and, at least Viborg would provide an extra security against Sweden. Of course, it will take time and money to build the proper barracks but for a while the troops could be billeted in the private houses. There was no reason for anybody to consider the whole thing as a threat.
The second part was not that easy for Catherine. Of course, Prince Golitsyn was awarded and promoted and had been a charming aristocrat but could he act with an iron fist if push comes to shove? This was a big “IF”. The obvious candidate was Rumyantsev but Catherine did not trust him: he swore loyalty to her only after learning about Peter’s death, did not pretend to be her admirer and after being bypassed with the awards may be angry with her. Well, as was written by the (ill)famous poet Trediakovsky, “способов не нет и некоторыми таковыми и я владею” [6]. Тhe most obvious “method” in Catherine’s disposal was her friend Countess Praskovia Bruce “She was beautiful, smart, kind, very dexterous, but she was not distinguished by the severity of her morals”. Well, her morals were neither here nor there, what was important was the fact that she was a sister of Peter Rumyantsev and could be conveniently used to remedy the situation.
Alexey Orlov was both a problem and an asset. Unlike his brother, he was very intelligent and could be useful to the state but his strong attachment to his brother could be a problem. Out of two of them, he was the most popular one among the Guards but elevation of the brothers produced resentment among many of his former comrades and it was rather questionable if Orlovs are still controlling the Guards. However, testing this could be a risky exercise and Catherine was not, yet, feeling herself quite comfortable on the throne. She needed to implement some reforms which would endear her to the broader circles of Russian nobility. And to execute advice of Fieldmarshal Munnich.
_________
[1] “soul” was a grownup male, a “taxable unit”. In practical term - a family
[2] So-called “Khitrovo plot”. Fyodor Khitrovo was a young officer and an active participant of the coup. Catherine knew and liked him and he got a court rank of kamer-junker and 800 souls but he got envious of the awards granted to Orlov family and the rumors about Catherine's planned marriage to Grigory Orlov. He conspired with two fellow officers to talk Catherine out of her plan and, if necessary, to kill Orlov. Investigation found that this was much ado about nothing and definitely not a plot against Catherine. Three plotters had been fired from the service and sent … to their estates.
[3] Do not get carried away imagining touchy & feely family reunion. He got an estate, a million in a bank and was sent abroad for education. It seems that in the brains area he went after his father.
[4] There were probably some other exceptions. Not sure if, say, Praskovia Bruce, Catherine’s close friend, was on the list because the obvious question would be “who screwed whom?”
[5] Note to the certain disrespectful youngsters: he was over 78 years old and, regardless his physical and mental shape, his age can be defined as “advanced”. 😜
[6] “the methods are not absent and I know some of them”
“Everyone will be rewarded according to his deeds.”
Unknown author
“After invention of money all other forms of appreciation became unnecessary.”
Andrzej Brycht, ‘DANCING W KWATERZE HITLERA’
“The material reward can be more than any praise. “
E. Sevrus
“The reward for high feats lies in themselves.”
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Jr.
“Insult is an usual award for the job well done.
M. А. Bulgakov
“The virtue serves itself as a reward; a person surpasses virtue when he serves and does not receive a reward.”
“The official dies, but his orders remain on the face of the earth.”
Kozma Prutkov
“If everyone gets what they deserve, some should have orders not in front, but in the back.”
Boris Krutier
"In large meetings at court, it is curious to observe the hard care with which the empress tries to please everyone, freedom and annoyance, with which everyone presses her about her affairs and her opinions... So, she strongly feels her dependence to endure it."
Breteil, The French ambassador
Unknown author
“After invention of money all other forms of appreciation became unnecessary.”
Andrzej Brycht, ‘DANCING W KWATERZE HITLERA’
“The material reward can be more than any praise. “
E. Sevrus
“The reward for high feats lies in themselves.”
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Jr.
“Insult is an usual award for the job well done.
M. А. Bulgakov
“The virtue serves itself as a reward; a person surpasses virtue when he serves and does not receive a reward.”
“The official dies, but his orders remain on the face of the earth.”
Kozma Prutkov
“If everyone gets what they deserve, some should have orders not in front, but in the back.”
Boris Krutier
"In large meetings at court, it is curious to observe the hard care with which the empress tries to please everyone, freedom and annoyance, with which everyone presses her about her affairs and her opinions... So, she strongly feels her dependence to endure it."
Breteil, The French ambassador
Trivia. At that time Russian Empire had only three state awards: St. Andrew (the highest), St. Alexander Nevsky and St. Catherine (awarded exclusively to the females). All three were the high level orders which could be given only to the high-ranking personages.
As a result, at the start of her reign Catherine had very limited options in the terms of rewarding the ordinary scumbags … oops, the heroes of the coup for their services: money or their equivalent (estates with the serfs) or promotions. Or both.
Shortly before the coronation, one of the old courtiers who served both Anna Ioannovna, the Infant Tsar John Antonovich, Elizabeth Petrovna, and Peter III, who was deposed by his wife who was preparing to become Catherine II, told her: "What a pity that you are not surrounded by more honest people," hinting that her inner circle is made up of famous treasury thiefs. "I know," the Empress replied, "but I need them."
Catherine II, with the scarcity of the treasury she had after Peter III, had to get out and look for opportunities to encourage the loyalty of the people around her. First of all, it was necessary to award those who participated in the coup and helped to get the crown. After all, the desire of the rest of the nobility to serve the new sovereign depended on how generous the awards would be to the putschists.
The new Empress paid off the Guards soldiers without delay in the days of the coup that began on June 28, 1762. The regiments of the Guards then took to the streets of St. Petersburg in order to stop any attempts by Peter III's supporters to support the deposed emperor. But in fact, the capital was put at their full disposal for three days. Soldiers broke into wine and edible shops, robbed wealthy passers-by, especially foreigners. Eyewitnesses recalled that the best pass to travel around the city in those days was silver and gold coins. And if the soldiers were satisfied with the fee for the passage through the picket, they let the carriage even without the usual swearing at the passengers. The Guards also earned a good job on the protection of houses, the owners of which quickly understood that in order to preserve the property, it was best to agree with an officer or sergeant, to contribute to their well-being and to get a couple of sober soldiers to protect themselves from their comrades in arms who were enjoying their short-term power.
Much more was required to pay for the services of high-ranking participants in the conspiracy - land, peasants and a lot of money. Catherine II could not go the way used by the former monarchs - to take away lands and estates from some and reward them to others - Catherine II could not: the family ties in the Russian noble class were painfully complex and diverse. If you touch one family, dozens or even hundreds of others will be offended. And even during the reign of Elizabeth Petrovna, the nobility was not accustomed to confiscation.
Therefore, the new empress had no choice but to go all-in and distribute state lands that were owned by the Grand Dukes, and then the Moscow tsars from time immemorial, with peasants who had not previously known the power of the landlord. The risk was huge, because the income from these lands replenished the personal treasury of monarchs and the storehouses of royal palaces. However, was it worth thinking about the distant future when the blackest day for her - another coup - could happen literally at any moment. [2] Catherine had to act fast.
The high ranking personages, including Hetman of Little Russia Kirill Razumovsky, due to an acute shortage of cash, were awarded not with monetary awards, but with an increase to the annual salary by 5 thousand.
Initially it was supposed to give estates to only 19 people and give almost everyone 1000 souls [1] (a total of 17,029 souls), and the rest to be awarded with money and rinks, but then many, instead of money, probably at their own request, received the estate. Instead of 19 people were awarded with inhabited estates in the hereditary possession total of 30 persons, and the total number of granted peasants has changed little: namely, 18,277 souls were distributed, so that each person received less than expected before - from 250 to 1,027 souls. Out of that number 12,177 souls were given from palace estates, 4,700 from sovereign-owned estates, and from which estates the two persons (1,400 souls) were granted, it is unknown. The main personages, including Grigory and Alexey Orlov, got 800 souls each or, if they wanted money, 24,000 rubles. Active participants of the conspiracy, who were not among its leaders, received 600 souls, that is, 18 thousand rubles each. And the tertiary putschists had to be content themselves with four hundred souls. So, at the first glance, the awards were rather moderate and distributed justly. But only at the first glance.
The sources.
The biggest source of the gifts were palace estates. The peasants belonged to the territories handled by the court administration and used to maintain the imperial palaces and properties.
By the time of Catherine II's accession to the throne, 62,052 souls of the sovereign’s peasants remained undistributed, and out of that pool most of the awards were made. Thus, from these estates, the Orlov brothers received 2,929 souls in 1762, and in 1764. As a result, within three years the number of sovereign’s peasants decreased by 10,265 souls. This was a noticeable hit to Catherine’s personal income but, sitting on the bayonets had its obvious disadvantages.
Another, rather limited pool were the estates confiscated by the state for the debts to the state bank or, in the earlier reigns, taken from the persons who fell into a disfavor.
In some cases the government had to buy the properties to use them as the gifts.
The brothers.
Formally, the main figure was Grigory, Catherine’s lover with whom she had a bastard child, Alexey Bobrinsky.[3] He was handsome, personally brave and rather good natured but this is pretty much a complete a list of his good qualities. After the coup he was promoted to major-general. On the same day, he was awarded the title of active chamberlain, the Order of St. Alexander Nevsky and a sword decorated with diamonds.
On the day of her coronation, September 22 (October 3), 1762, Empress Catherine II promoted Major General Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov to lieutenant general and appointed her adjutant-general. In addition, by the decree of September 22 (October 3), 1762, Chamberlain Ivan, Lieutenant General Grigory, Guards Major Alexei, Chamber Junkers Fyodor and Vladimir Grigorievich Orlov were elevated, with their descending offsprings, to the count's dignity of the Russian Empire.
The problems started immediately after the coup and kept getting more serious after the coronation when the brothers started treating the state Treasure as their own purse. Almost every week they asked the Empress and received 5-10 thousand rubles each. And despite the fact that their position and influence differed quite significantly, all the money received by the brothers at first were divided equally, preserving in the relationship and other elements of the Russian patriarchal life they were used to since childhood. It was said, for example, that the older brother could beat any of the younger ones for the guilt without looking at the ranks.
The Empress gave Grigory the favorite estate of her predecessor Elizabeth Petrovna - Ropsha near St. Petersburg. In addition to the magnificent palace, the estate included a luxurious garden, and most importantly, it numbered 12,000 acres of land and 1,100 peasant souls. During trips to Moscow, Orlov could live in any of the royal palaces and use the palace storehouses and carriages without any restrictions. Moreover, the Empress collected for Orlov in a special collection of all kinds of precious things and trinkets, and so that the favorite did not suffer from lack of funds (although he received a very significant amount from his estates annually - 200,000 rubles), Catherine also assigned him a state pension of 150,000 rubles annually.
This avalanche of the gifts could continue but:
- No matter how hard Catherine tried to make him a statesman, Grigory was hopeless and his participation in the Imperial Council was both confusing and embarrassing because when he was opening his mouth, none of the Council members knew for sure if he is repeating what the Empress ordered him to say or retelling ideas of his brother Alexey (brain of the family) or expressing his own thoughts (well, this option could be figured out 😂) and react accordingly. The same applied to the numerous commissions to which Catherine assigned him.
- One of the main Grigory’s free time occupations were dedicated efforts to screw all Catherine’s ladies and maids in waiting, with few exceptions based upon the age or excessively ugly appearance [4]. For a while Catherine tolerated this but her tolerance had been wearing quite thin.
- The brothers had been pushing a very unpopular idea of Grigory’s marriage to Catherine. “Hitrovo plot” was just a tiny reflection of a general negative attitude but they (or rather Grigory, with his usual absence of tact) kept pressing the issue until Count Panin officially declared in the Senate: “Her Majesty can do whatever she wants but Missis Orlov will not be the Russian Empress!” Catherine got it but Grigory did not and soon enough, probably not being quite sober, quarreled with Catherine in public ending up saying: “I put it on the throne and within a month I can dethrone you!” To which, Hetman Razumovsky, who was present at the scene, commented: “This is true but we’ll have you hanged in two weeks!”
Obviously, Grigory became a liability rather than an asset but for Catherine there were two major considerations:
- She still could not firmly decide which part of her anatomy is prevailing in the decision making.
- She still feared Orlov’s popularity among the Guards who were forming garrison of the capital.
The first part of advise was not a problem: the former Rumyantsev’s army had been marching out for Prussia and placing these troops as Munnich proposed made sense because it would mean a reasonably short march and, at least Viborg would provide an extra security against Sweden. Of course, it will take time and money to build the proper barracks but for a while the troops could be billeted in the private houses. There was no reason for anybody to consider the whole thing as a threat.
The second part was not that easy for Catherine. Of course, Prince Golitsyn was awarded and promoted and had been a charming aristocrat but could he act with an iron fist if push comes to shove? This was a big “IF”. The obvious candidate was Rumyantsev but Catherine did not trust him: he swore loyalty to her only after learning about Peter’s death, did not pretend to be her admirer and after being bypassed with the awards may be angry with her. Well, as was written by the (ill)famous poet Trediakovsky, “способов не нет и некоторыми таковыми и я владею” [6]. Тhe most obvious “method” in Catherine’s disposal was her friend Countess Praskovia Bruce “She was beautiful, smart, kind, very dexterous, but she was not distinguished by the severity of her morals”. Well, her morals were neither here nor there, what was important was the fact that she was a sister of Peter Rumyantsev and could be conveniently used to remedy the situation.
Alexey Orlov was both a problem and an asset. Unlike his brother, he was very intelligent and could be useful to the state but his strong attachment to his brother could be a problem. Out of two of them, he was the most popular one among the Guards but elevation of the brothers produced resentment among many of his former comrades and it was rather questionable if Orlovs are still controlling the Guards. However, testing this could be a risky exercise and Catherine was not, yet, feeling herself quite comfortable on the throne. She needed to implement some reforms which would endear her to the broader circles of Russian nobility. And to execute advice of Fieldmarshal Munnich.
_________
[1] “soul” was a grownup male, a “taxable unit”. In practical term - a family
[2] So-called “Khitrovo plot”. Fyodor Khitrovo was a young officer and an active participant of the coup. Catherine knew and liked him and he got a court rank of kamer-junker and 800 souls but he got envious of the awards granted to Orlov family and the rumors about Catherine's planned marriage to Grigory Orlov. He conspired with two fellow officers to talk Catherine out of her plan and, if necessary, to kill Orlov. Investigation found that this was much ado about nothing and definitely not a plot against Catherine. Three plotters had been fired from the service and sent … to their estates.
[3] Do not get carried away imagining touchy & feely family reunion. He got an estate, a million in a bank and was sent abroad for education. It seems that in the brains area he went after his father.
[4] There were probably some other exceptions. Not sure if, say, Praskovia Bruce, Catherine’s close friend, was on the list because the obvious question would be “who screwed whom?”
[5] Note to the certain disrespectful youngsters: he was over 78 years old and, regardless his physical and mental shape, his age can be defined as “advanced”. 😜
[6] “the methods are not absent and I know some of them”
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