The Raid on Scapa Flow or WI Germany had Aircraft Carriers in WWII

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Others have supplied lengthy amounts of information for the purposes of improving your ideas and giving deeper context.

It is not simply a case of those who support such an idea being the only positive input, and to characterize others as "all Brits are running mad about the idea of an airraid on their home base by German aircraft, starting from carriers" is incorrect just as it is incharitable. Some aren't even British.

You make this observation that this is alternate history. Alternate history timelines are realistic and viable developments that include reaction to developments in the same manner that they occur in the real world. No event - alternate or otherwise - exists in a vacuum.

Changing naval construction is not merely a matter of shifting workers, money and steel from project to project. There are several sites online that detail some of the problems and bottlenecks involved in building capital ships of any sort, particularly carriers, for the first time.

If you only choose to react to support, then you won't get the full experience of writing a good timeline, and you won't craft a realistic one.

Some criticism has used the term ASB. It is a term I've never really warmed to as it tries to manipulate those most ephemeral of things - ideas - into firmly set categories.

This timeline is an example of the difference between extremely, extremely improbable and the literally impossible. It relies upon the RN doing nothing to respond to massive changes in German doctrine and equipment at a time when the major trend of RN doctrinal thinking was heading towards the carrier. It requires the British defence establishment as a whole to do less to protect Scapa Flow than they did in response to the historical reconaissance flights and sinking of Royal Oak.

Unless and until you can fully address those issues, then all you'll have is a story that will be pleasing to a select audience, but not a realistic and respected timeline.

As said previously, the best option is to keep tinkering with things back in the 1920s as you have already started on doing, and to either think up a better way to get around what will be the majorly improved defences of Scapa Flow (if the Home Fleet even uses it still) or shift the idea of a German carrier action to the North Sea.

Even then, people will raise issues as to the response of the Royal Navy. This is inevitable. Events do not occur in a perfectly sterile testing laboratory, but in the real world where friction occurs.

This forum arguably has too many threads that have everything going right for one side every time. This is an opportunity to change that and to explore the very interesting potential ramifications of a German carrier force.

As mentioned earlier, there are a lot of people around here with a lot of knowledge on and resources about the RN in this era, and about Scapa Flow no less. Make the most of it.
 
CalBear, thanks a lot for your help.

Do you mean Adler17 and Informationfan for this post or the other guys?


From my point of view, as the author of this threat, all Brits are running mad about the idea of an airraid on their home base by German aircraft, starting from carriers. If you got a different feeling - so it is.


Adler17 and Informationfan are giving me better hints for my story, when all other just tell everbody that idea is ASB. I'm sorry, but I changed BB into CV. Sounds unrealistic? I thought that we are here for alternate history! Do you wrote the same, on threats like: "WI Monica had a baby from Bill?"

My problem was, if the German industry will do it, building carriers, in time for a new war? And this was solved, via the information from Adler17 and Informationfan. If the others do not get it? So what...


And please remember this is Alternate History!


Please do not harm them (Adler17 and Informationfan) for writing (long) post on this threat, while others writing about "this is ASB. The whole TL will never do it" with long posts either, and NO COMMMENT FROM A MOD!


I could write my story very well on my own and I do not have the feeling that these both men are doing something wrong.

All others are not exemted from that. Every piece of information will help to make this story better!


Thanks for all comments!
Ovaron97



Its more of a warning to stop Adler's flame war spilling into another thread. It appears that you are under-estimating the British navy they may have used atiquated aircraft but they were at the cutting edge of naval tactics. I like that you started your PODn in the 20's(making it much more plausible than Adler's;)') but adding the Japanese to help the Germans will be an issue as in the 20's the British and Japanses navies were quite friendly so that will make keeping the secret German/USSR/Japanese building program a lot harder. And that the British navy missed their wet dream turn up on their doorstep is hard to swallow :D

From your POD realistically the German navy will be facing and equivilant OTL 1945 British navy covered both by their aircraft and land based fighters and bombers from the multiple British airfields that surround Scapa Flow.
 

Adler

Banned
However, that is only under the condition that the RN really takes the right assumptions. If they don't, what is, too, possible, it might end in a desaster for the RN. And considering the many battlewagon fans there and similar errors made by the French and US it is not impossible.

Adler
 
Not really, Britain, through virtue of foresight was one of the two frontrunners (along with Japan) who were pushing carriers forward, so imagining that they could be caught by surprise by their use by a nation with both less experience and less foresight (OTL) is quite ridiculous.
 

Adler

Banned
The US had the very same model trained, a carrier raid on the Panama Canal. Thus it would not be that ridiculous as it sounds.

Adler
 
And it was just amazing luck by the Japanese that saw their raid happen on the same day as the Americans were expecting a flight of B-17s which the Japanese attack got mistaken for, had it happened on any other day the Americans would have inflicted fairly heavy casualties on the Japanese. The Germans OTOH won't have any such luck (they could only confuse the British by flying from Pentland Firth, and that begs the question of how you're supposed to get a fleet in the first place).
 
Please....someone invade the Frisian Islands............

I was fighting off memories of the long and painful period of life that I'll never get back on those threads today. I was on another website where a cretin with a conspiracy bee in his bonnet the size of the Hindenberg was trying to claim that the Titanic was in fact sunk by a U-boat in some form of pre-war terror op by the German government.
 
The US had the very same model trained, a carrier raid on the Panama Canal. Thus it would not be that ridiculous as it sounds.

Adler
Pearl Harbor does not work here as a comparison

In addition to the B-17 issue already mentioned the USA was at Peace at the time and Pearl Harbor was technically out of range of the Japanese fleet (they had to deck load fuel and put fuel in the bilges from what I recall and still nearly lost 9 ships from low fuel)

None of this applies to Scapa Flow, which also had two previous German attempts to attack in WWI, they know it is a target
 
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Part 11: Battleships or Carriers? – Answers, the Italian Style

The mind change in Italy about the issue battleships or carriers was not so discussed, like in Germany. In southern Europe ‘Il Duce’ got the power in his hands and he was giving the main course of the country. But the reason for this solution came up from an incident, done by the Royal Navy, the main threat in the eyes of Italia, itself.

During a visit at Tobruk, in Tripolitania the Italian colony in northern Africa, between French Tunesia and British dominated Egypt, the eyes of Mussolini went up to, what he thought was a group of aircraft from the Regia Aeronautica, the Italian Air Force.

He waved with his hands towards the air group and told the nearest sitting officer: “I’m very proud of the Regia Aeronautica to send planes during my visit to Tripolitania!”

The officer look at him, not understanding what ‘Il Duce’was talking about. Mussolini looked in his eyes, than he waved upwards and ask him again. “Look at these aircraft. The proud airmen are doing their job and we are here on the ground and watching. Which formation is it? I’m interested to know the commander of the group. Where is he positioned?”

The eyes of the officer were getting great. Now he understood the question and thought quickly. If he will give Mussolini the correct answer he would be angry. If he told him not the truth somebody must be found to serve as the commander of the wing. After a few seconds, during Mussolini was waiving and waiving towards the air formation, the Italian marine officer told ‘Il Duce’ the truth, not realizing that he would change the main course of the Regia Marina and Regia Aeronautica thereafter.

“So, which is the formation from?” Mussolini asked again and the marine officer gave the answer.

“I think the 24. Squadron, Sir!” He used the English name, not the normal used Italian title of an air formation. Mussolini looked at him, surprised and than spoke. “Found the commander, so I will give him a decoration for the flight. It is wonderful seeing Italian aircraft so far away from the homeland!”

“That is not possible, ‘Il Duce’. We would not find him. And, off course, not even the king could give an English officer a decoration!”

“What are you telling me? English officer? There are our Italian pilots in the air, not English pilots!”

“No, Sir. There were no Italian planes, with one engine only, in large formation, in Tripolitania, today. The nearest airfield for this type of aircraft is Taranto. It’s nearly 1.000km away. No plane with one engine is able to fly this route!”

The silence was astonishing. Everybody was listening for the reaction of ‘Il Duce’ after this explanation.

“English aircraft?” Mussolini explodes. “What the hell is that? Why aren’t Italian aircraft in this area to support us? Where they are? Sleeping? The Regia Aeronautica will pay for this!” He was shaking his head and than looking to his officer, again.

His answer came quick: “These were airplanes from a British carrier and so they can spot us.”

“They were coming from an aircraft carrier?” Mussolini asked. “Where are ours? We have to shown them the power of the Regia Marina!”

“I’m sorry, but Italia do not have aircraft carriers. Italia doesn’t have any kind of this ship, so we are out of range! Nobody will disturb these planes.” He thought quick and continued. “Unless a miracle will come, they can attack us and we do not have a chance against them!”

“But our aircraft were the best ones in the world!”

“Without an aircraft carrier no plane will get in the range of Tobruk. I’m sorry, Sir. We do not have aircraft carriers, so the Royal Navy could do what they want at the moment.” The officer told ‘Il Duce’. Than he continued, changing the main course of the Italian forces for the future with one sentence. “And the Regia Mariana doesn’t have planes either. All aircraft were belonging to the Regia Aeronautica! No one else in our forces got airplanes and the Regia Aeronautica will not give them anybody else.”

But not for long time. A month later Mussolini signed the order to construct two aircraft carriers instead of two battleships. Short time after two additional light carriers were ordered, too.

But this was another story.

TBC
Ovaron97
 
Part 12: Changes after the Anglo-German Treaty

When in 1935 the Anglo-German Fleet Agreement was signed not only a build program was opened, other things went on, too.

A few days after the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, was founded to the public. Many of the new officers were pilots, either trained by the Red Air Force or the Lufthansa and other civilian companies. So they had a better start, bought airplanes on there own and begun the development of a new branch of the German Forces.

Shortly after the Heer, the German Army, and the Kriegsmarine (KM), the German Navy started their own programs for aircraft and their feasibility for the forces.

The KM did this with information from two main sources. The Japanese Navy for the specifications of carrier purposes and long range spotting capabilities from the Lufthansa postal flights across, better above the Atlantic Ocean. Both parties gave detailed information especially for flying above water, salt water for corrosion and other things. It was seen that not only single engine aircraft, operating from flattops were required, but multi-engine planes, too. Both types were ordered and by the beginning of the war about 350 single engine aircraft plus 100 multi-engine were available.

The Heer was mainly interested in reconnaissance and chose the help of the Italian and Russian Air Forces. There the spotter planes like the Fi 167, the ‘Storch’ and other supporting or utility aircraft came up. At one time the Heer wanted air support aircraft, but this part was better given to the Luftwaffe for various reasons. Training, using and development of procedures for the close air support (CAS) required capabilities the Luftwaffe only had. Due to the limited resources if was better given to them. But the requirement still exists and close to the war a specialized aircraft, the Henschel 123, was entering service, mainly for this kind of operation. It was treated as the ‘flying tank’ in addition to the Panzers on the ground.

Three days after the signature the boxes around some docks were opened and the world could see the new tool of the KM. Three U-boats, type IIA were getting out and two month later the first submarine group was founded. After their feasibility was shown, new types came up and by the beginning of the War in September 1940 not only 28 U IIA were available, but 62 larger Atlantic submarines type U VII, too.

Off course the production of the carriers started thereafter, too. Until 1935 all three ships of the Deutschland Class, were finished; same for six light cruisers. Looking for the right size for a light carrier the light cruisers of the Leipzig Class ships were seen as a base. Due to Japanese influence it was enlarged from 6.000ts to 10.000ts but all of the construction details of the ship were taken. A diesel was the main source of power, getting a longer range than other machines and several details were, enlarged off course, taken in addition. A wooden flight deck was put on top and than the first light carrier of the new Germany Navy was finished. It took barely 26 months from start until she was commissioned and begun with trials, thanks to the Japanese and other preparation work.

Soon it was followed by the other carriers.

TBC
Ovaron97
 
Part 13: 1935 -Order new Planes!

Note: Part 1 of this timeline would be rewritten!

Section One: The Fighter (Me 109 vs. He 112)
In February 1934 the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) request for proposes for new fighter aircraft. Four aircraft companies send their aircrafts for trials at Travemünde in 1935. Two constructions from Arado and Focke-Wulf did not have any chances but the fight between Heinkel He 112 and Messerschmidt Me 109 was hard. In the end the Me 109 would be the main fighter and the Reichsmarine should use a version converted for carrier operations.

After two additional months the Oberkommando der Marine (OKM), as was named now, announced that the Me 109 was not feasible for carrier operations, mainly due to the limited range and the narrow main landing gear. The main fighter of the Kriegsmarine would be the Heinkel He 112 with some changes, e.g. a canopy for the pilot and other features.

Section Two: The Sturzkampfbomber (Ju 87 vs. He 118)
In April 1934 the RLM request for proposes for a new type of bomber aircraft, named Sturzkampfbomber or ‘Stuka’. This time only three companies build aircraft and the winning aircraft was chosen after trials, similar to the fighter campaign. Mainly due to the retractable landing gear and the possibilities of developments in the future (e.g. range, firepower) Heinkel with his He 118 was the winning aircraft.

This time the OKM used the He 118 for carrier operations as well. Heinkel instead was a little bit overwhelmed by winning two competitions in short time, plus the construction and production of the medium size bomber He 111. So it asked Junkers to further development and production for this plane with their help. Junkers agreed after the RLM gave their acknowledgement, too. Soon it was named Ju 118 thereafter, flying for both the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. Later it was flying for other nations, especially Italy.

TBC
Ovaron97
 
I like how you brought Italy into this. The British will probably be ordering more battleships right?

Whereas I don't. It's silly - what's a British carrier doing operating around Tripolitania in the mid-'30s - and ignores the strategic logic against Italian carriers (anything carrier-based would be outclassed by land-based aircraft). I'd argue that the Regia Aeronautica had the right argument, actually - Italy was a giant aircraft carrier sitting astride the Mediterranean, after all.
 
OP, if you are really looking for a chance to give Germany a fleet, maybe try a more original, further back POD?

Perhaps either have a shorter WW1, or no WW1 at all (perhaps a series of Balkan wars etc), leaving the Balance of Powers largely intact. Then, over the 1920s carriers develop amongst all the Great Powers, including Germany, aiming for a war sometime in the late 1920s!
 
Tobruk is in Cyrenaica, not Tripolitania.
In Tripolitania, there is an operational Italian airfield at the time of this story, being Mellaha Air Base, or what later became Wheelus Air Base near Tripoli. Castel Benito was built a little later on. Benina and Tobruk airfields may or may not have been operational in the mid 1930s, but were certainly working in 1940.

This does lead to fundamentally questioning the basis of the section that claims that there is no projection of Italian airpower between there and Taranto.

If there is a requirement for air power in Italian North Africa, then an airfield makes a lot more sense and costs less than an aircraft carrier.

There needs to be a more persuasive series of events that cause the Italians to abandon the entire focus of their naval structure and development. The first two Littorios are too far along to cancel, and replacing the second pair with carriers really gives no result for many years apart from giving in to French dominance of the Mediterranean.

Carriers would come in addition to battleships, rather than cancelling them when so much has already been invested; as others have alluded to previously, the temptation to underestimate the difficulty of swapping naval construction plans around should not be underestimated.
It is not simply a matter of redirecting a certain amount of steel, applying money and men through a hose and then getting a fully functional unit several turns - sorry, years - later.

There is the small matter of why the RN is happily violating Italian airspace left unaddressed.

There are viable and real Italian carrier projects from the mid to late 30s that can be used rather than a completely fictional event that seems overly contrived for its purpose.

Try out the Regia Marina board on Warships Projects. You'll need to register to read it, but it has all the detail you could want for a real in depth examination of the subject, not to mention access to the other areas of the site which have further details about the navies of this period. Even looking in the Aircraft Carrier forum on Navweaps will be of great use and benefit.
 
Hello everybody,

after these discussions about how feasible it would be to react against possible German Cariers, and Italian, too. the main question is still open.

How many warships and which Britain are build until 1940 (beginning of the war in this TL?

I suggest two BB (George V class) less and two carriers (Illustrious class) instead. Or three CV based on the assumption that carriers are faster build than BB.

Is France capable to construct more carriers than Bearn on time? In otl they planned two CV, but none of them entered service, even not after WWII.

Open for commentary!

Thanks
Ovaron97
 
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