Varna Crusade Victorious: The Second Coming of the Conquest Armies.
- Thread starter Putnam
- Start date
Speaking of Anatolia, is the blob in the interior meant to be the Karamanids being the main Turkish power in the region?
I think we'll see fierce efforts by the Spanish/Portuguese/French/Italians to take a slice of North Africa for themselves.
Can't wait for the next update 👍👍👍
Yep, maybe we get an Iberian Union? Would be nice if Miguel De Paz lives TTL
Yep.
Like I said, unless it's directly or indirectly impacted by the the PoD (with some exceptions, if I find it interesting), most of Europe will remain as OTL.
1500 AD Part II - The Anatolian Crusade
The Anatolian Crusade
In the centuries following the twin crusades that helped save the Empire from its partially self-inflicted destruction, many would consider the second of the two crusades, the Anatolian Crusade, to be a bit of an afterthought. A historical blip. A war so inevitable in taking place and in it's following victory that it's barely worth mentioning. However, in this they are only partially correct.
It is true that once the Crusade got going in the Spring of 1448, it very much was the Crusaders' to lose. This is due to the ongoing 2nd Great Ottoman Interregnum that would go on to destroy the sultanate as a power worth noting. Plus a number of tribes subjugated by the Ottomans, such as the Aydinids and the Saruhanids, would break free from Ottoman rule, essentially permanently... until conquered by the Crusaders and reintegrated into the Empire.
But how did the Interregnum happen if Mehmed II's father was still alive and could reascend to the throne? Well, after the death of Mehmed II, Murad II did try to do just that. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) he died before he got the chance. The exact cause of death is unknown. Rumors abound that it was the Romans that ordered the assassination. Some say he died of an illness complicated by the stress of the situation. Still others believe that it was one of Murad II's other surviving sons, who desired the throne. Considering the duplicity of Ottoman Dynastic politics the last one is pretty likely, but we shouldn't discount the possibility of Roman involvement in... encouraging things.
However it happened, it spelled the doom of the Ottoman Sultanate. Had Murad II lived it's possible that he might of been able to keep a measure of stability in Anatolia and rallied what forces he had left in order to face the Crusaders. It's even possible that he could've even won against them, securing the Ottoman Sultanate as an Anatolian realm at least. Fortunately for the Crusaders, he died, leaving behind nothing but a bunch of irrelevant squabbling remnants, incapable of resisting even a light breeze, let alone the hurricane force winds headed their way.
But why were they headed their way? Why was another crusade forming? Surely the main reason for the Crusade, saving Europe from the Heathen Turks and save the Empire from destruction, had been achieved. Why continue on? Certainly Władysław felt this way. He'd accomplished what he'd set out to do. He pushed the Turks out of Europe and by doing so put Constantinople in his debt, all the while securing his legacy as a holy monarch. No, right now is the time to sit back and enjoy the perks of his victory while securing his reign over his domains. Anatolia could wait for another day...
Unfortunately, Władysław's men didn't feel the same way. Their thirst for Holy Slaughter had not been quenched by the Balkan Crusade. They needed to spill more heathen blood in the name of Christ, their king's opinion on the matter be damned.
And for the Romans' part, they were largely in agreement with Władysław. Sure, in theory it would be nice to secure Western Anatolia, and clearly that was the long term goal, but currently the Empire was barely holding down the Balkans. (OoC: For a visual, when thinking about the Balkans in this ALT 1440s, think of the Mojave from Fallout New Vegas. Sure, the Romans are there, and they even collect taxes, but they're largely ineffectual at maintaining law and order) The Imperial Army at the time of the Anatolian Crusade was barely ten thousand men strong and of that most were barely even trained or properly armed. Of those ten thousand men, only two thousand were even worth a damn in a fight, but still well below the standards of the Crusaders. Indeed, the Crusaders, during the Balkan Crusade, having heard stories of the Romans of old, looked upon these fellows, some with contempt, but most with pity. They saw with their own eyes how their cause was clearly a just one. "How could it not be just to save these poor lost lambs from the slaughter of the Turks?" Did it aggravate the Romans to be compared to harmless livestock? Almost certainly, but it was also seen as yet more of the necessary humility Almighty God had placed upon them to teach them the all too important lessons that should've been learned long ago. One day True Rome shall rise from this mire and show these over proud Latins what True Romans were capable of, but it is not this day. Today, Rome must show humility to these Latins, least God send yet another plague upon her people.
As to Constantinople's take on an Anatolian Crusade... As said, it was not entirely unwanted, but they weren't expecting it so soon. Ten years, at least and maybe they could secure the Balkans enough to consider retaking Anatolia. Preferably more time would pass and the state of the Empire would improve even more. But only a few years after the Balkan Crusade is madness!
But the Empire was not in a position to refuse. To refuse would risk offending the Crusaders and turning them away (or worse) and burning away all the good will built up over the years. If they wanted to go now, then it would have to be now. Potential consequences be damned.
So with no small amount of trepidation alongside the excitement of returning to Anatolia in force in over a century (ignoring the short period of time when the Empire held Nicomedia and some other enclaves in Anatolia during the Ottoman Interregnum), the Empire landed at Khalkedon and occupied it in anticipation of the needs of the oncoming Crusader Army.
From here the story of the Anatolian Crusade becomes rather anticlimatic I'm afraid. Instead of any epic battles or sieges, it largely came down to march around and demanding the submission of any cities along the way, while occasionally dealing with any small Turkish band that professed support for one pretender or another.
The most difficult part came when marching into the breakaway Beyliks where it actually involved fighting a semi-proper enemy army, but even that was fairly easy.
In many ways, thanks to the Ottoman Interregnum, the Anatolian Crusade boiled down to a mission to restore order to Western Anatolia rather than an epic struggle between civilizations. Some even question if it should even count as a separate crusade.
In the next part will get into what the Romans got up to in the roughly 50 years since the end of the Anatolian Crusade and the end to the Great Schism of 1054.
Nice update, good showing how the Anatolian Crusade came about, both anticlimactic and grand in it's own way. Nice showing the differences between the Romans and Latins on how Anatolia should be handled. The Romans, people who have to live in the area, are much more slow going and truly want to consolidate while the Latins, aggressive go-getters from far away lands, want to press the offensive here and now. Will we see how things are in Poland-Lithuania-Hungary or the HRE with a successful crusade? Keep up the great work 👍👍👍
Will the Karamanids revive the Sultanate of Rum as they're the dominant Turkish power in Anatolia and control its old capital in Konya?
Last edited:
It would be interesting if the Karamanids do that...and immediately get destroyed (by internal or external factors) 🤣🤣🤣. Anyone who claims the false title finds doom and gloom. Anatolia from the Turkish perspective must be Game of Thrones on steroids, everyone is killing one another 😝😝.
Last edited:
Alternatively, what could be wack could be a situation in which a Rhomaioi Romania and a Turkish Rumistan face each other in Anatolia.
I doubt it will happen Pod is far enough behind to be able to change the development of the Borgia family, certainly we will see Callisto III being an important cardinal in the curia ( Eugene made him a cardinal in this year, 1444 ), but as for his nephew the chances of him having the same career as Otl are very few ( since moved to Italy to study and make a career in the church from 1450 onwards ) even if this scenario totally modifies the possibilities of Bessarion and Cusanus to become pontiffs ( since they could obtain enormous prestige from the survival of Byzantium, the former being one of the major supporters and promoters of the Union of the church, while the latter is the one who diplomatically and managed to bring together a winning crusader force this time, as well as being held in enormous consideration in HRE, Byzantium, Hungary, Rome etc ) although I fear that sooner or later the Rhomanois will end up in conflict with the Romans ( for the question of who can really call themselves a "true" Roman, given that for the time it was an absurd concept to think that both were right in calling themselves that ) otherwise a really interesting story, I'm curious to see how it will develop in the next chapters, above all there are 3 things that intrigue me mainly for the moment (the fate of the Muslim Turks who are now part of the Empire ( and also of the other Orthodox minorities , which I think Constantinople will want to assimilate ) the development of Europe neighboring the Balkans ( mainly Italy, the southern part of the HRE and Hungary - PLC ) and finally the situation after the Council of Ferrara ( which in OTL saw Mark of Ephesus as a difficult opponent of the reunification of the churches )
Last edited:
it would be the war of the three Romes : fought between Rumi, Rhomanois and Romani ( Citizens of Rome ), if we then consider that the few Uniate pilgrims who went to Rome in Otl, coming from Greece, who made the mistake of calling the locals barbarians compared to their civilized Rhomanois, probably risked being beaten ( never tell a Roman that in reality he is not a " Real Roman ", they are very susceptible to this, and rightly they could be offended, since then what should they be called ?, Papalini ?, nah that sounds bad ) most of the time it was Bessarion's intervention that saved the unfortunates, given that the locals had a deep respect for the cardinal
Last edited:
After Varna Władysław would turn his attention to the north. He has too solve problem with Lithuania, where his brother Kazimierz became Grand Duke against his will.
Yes, it's ruled by the Romans. Remember, this map is a snapshot of the region in January 1500. The Turks have long since stopped being relevant in Western Anatolia by this point. The choice in shading will be explained in the next part of the 1500 AD chapter.
But as a hint: I'm using the THICC color scheme.
Oh, the Safavids are still in play! Look to the east of Anatolia. See the baby puke green? That's the Safavids.
Huh? The Eastern and Western Churches are still very much in schism at this point...
This will indeed happen! Finally, a timeline where Constantine XI can look toward a bright and happy future!
Maybe, maybe, but the man was 49 at the time of the OTL fall of Constantinople and 40 at the time of the PoD and his second wife had died two years prior to the PoD...
Regardless, he does have Demetrios and Thomas to fall back on should the worst happen... And as for any civil wars, not to spoil anything, but a civil war is not in the cards for a very long time. At this stage the elites are very much a tightly knit group with a "we're all in this together" mentality. This will fade in time, as the Empire's prosperity and the amount of resources available to it improve, but by that point (i.e. the closing decades of the 15th century) the Palaiologoi will have secured their position as the Great Saviors of Rome. So no one's going to be even remotely considering overthrowing them going forward. Think of their position as similar to the Macedonian Dynasty. As far as the people of Constantinople are concerned the Palaiologoi are their family, full stop. Should the dynasty cease ruling the Empire, it will most likely be because the family died out.
And if that's not satisfactory for you, there's also the simple fact that the overwhelming majority of what little military resources the Empire has in the early years following the Anatolian Crusade, for whatever they're worth, are under the control of either the Emperor personally, as would happen during Constantine XI's reign, or a direct family member. Basically no one really has the resources to rebel at this stage. By the time we get to 1500, this has largely changed, but it's important to understand that the Palaiologoi had been ruling the Empire for roughly two and a half centuries by this point. They were very firmly the legitimate imperial dynasty at this stage.
It should also be noted that even in OTL, the Palaiologoi had largely secured their rule over the Empire pretty effectively. Mind you, that was more like securing the nicest funeral pyre, but still an accomplishment.
Trust me when I say that the Romans learned from the previous two centuries and they will NOT be simply resting on their laurels eating popcorn while the rest of Europe burns.
Trust me, by the time the Safavids will be in a position to do anything in Anatolia, the Romans will largely be in control over most of it, if only as client states. What few parts that remain unaligned will probably be pushed into the Roman camp by any Persian aggression in that direction.
When it comes to the PLH and the HRE, you will hear more from them, though perhaps not in as much detail you might like.
As for the PLH specifically, Hungary will not be remaining a part of the union forever, but both Hungary and the ALT PLC will remain on excellent terms with the Romans going forward. The Union will remain for a few generations at least, though.
As for the HRE, the lack of a powerful Imperial Habsburgs will have implications for the Reformation.
When it comes to the politics and history of the Church, I'm afraid you've caught me lacking, sorry. I can only explain what happened and a very generalized why, I can't really explain the how or go into detail on the why.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I would assume that, due to his boosted reputation from the Balkan Crusade, dealing with his brother will be a fairly straight forward affair.
Last edited:
And yeah, we can agree that sans the House of Osman, Shi’a Islam is 100% going to do better than OTL with the Mamluks kinda on their way out when the Ottomans IOTL defeated them and the Mughals the last major Sunni Empire?